I don’t know the person who started this thread. I don’t know where he lives or what he does for a living, or if he is kind to his mother. I don’t want to know.
What I do know is that the views expressed in the opening post are beneath contempt.
I think you must’ve missed this:
To those here who feel it was “too early” to post a thread asking others if they saw the “awesomeness” in the toppling of the WTC towers, I think you may be missing something… perhaps. I got the feeling from The Great Gazoo (particularly from replies posted after his OP, I admit) that even he was a bit horrified/troubled by his ability to separate the very real, painful emotions that go with witnessing such a horrific event and be able to acknowledge the sheer “awesomeness” of the immense fireballs and thousands of tons of steel, glass, cement, etc. that just crumbled into dust and debris as if it were nothing more than a delicate sand castle. And he wondered if anyone else felt the same way so that he wouldn’t feel alone in his very conflicting emotions.
We’re all trying to get a grasp on our feelings - to process what we’ve just witnessed. If it helps Gazoo to know he’s not alone, now would seem like a not-so-inappropriate time to ask if anyone else is dealing with the same thoughts.
And it seems from some of the replies here, he certainly isn’t alone. FTR, I had some of the same feelings. It really was an utterly amazing sight - even if that amazement was filled with horror, dread and sadness.
I’ve rarely stopped crying for a week. In addition to fellow Dopers, I know several people who literally escaped almost certain death by mere minutes, both in the WTC and the Pentagon. I’m heartsick and scared. I’ve woken from nightmares several times this week.
Perhaps the word we’re looking for is surreal.
Main Entry: sur·re·al
1 : having the intense irrational reality of a dream.
Jeg elsker dig, Thomas
Not to worry, Gazoo, no flame here.
I guess the point being missed is the fact that the images discussed have been shown thousands of times, over and over, on all the networks for a week now.
Why do they continue to be shown?
Is it because there are people out there who have not seen them? I doubt it, I think everyone in the nation with television access has.
Is it because we have forgotten them? No, since the very first time I saw the planes smash into the buildings and the collapses that followed, the images have been forever seered into my memory.
Is it because we need to see them 100 times to grasp the horror of it? Absolutely not, at least for me, and I assume everyone else, only one time was enough to be completely horrified for a long, long time. Maybe even for life.
IMHO, these images have been repeated over and over, night and day, because for the most part, Americans do have a fascination with the morbid reality of death, destruction, and the unbelievable images captured in those events. The networks know this, and know that by showing those images, people will stay tuned. We were all horrified by what happened, and are all having trouble grasping the magnitude of it all. Those things do not, however, stop my eyes from being glued to the screen anytime I see what happened. Is it beautiful? Not by my definition. Does it cause me to be awestruck? Hell yes.
I did miss it- thanks for pointing it out.
Zette
The OP is beneath contempt. (**Manhattan, ** here’s a hug for you, even though I know it can’t help)
Yes, there is a stunning grandeur to so horrifyingly large an event, like the sinking of the Titanic, the eruption of Mount Saint Helens, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One is overwhelmed by tragedy and horror almost beyond the scope of human comprehension. In that sense, I see what you mean.
But to view the deaths of thousands of people as mere spectacle is emotionally obtuse, and to post such sentiments in the view of people whose emotional wounds are raw is despicable.
I disagree - gun, head, forcing you to read, blah blah blah, you know the drill. The title of the thread was warning enough, and his OP and subsequent posts have contained warnings and disclaimers ad nauseum. I think “beneath contempt” is irresponsible hyperbole, as it’s already been evidenced, even by you, that the beauty of destruction is in evidence here by more than just him.
Esprix
The OP is saying, “Wow, that’s cool, better than a Hollywood movie,” whereas I am saying, “Oh my God, that is tragic beyond my ability to comprehend.” Nowhere near the same thing. And there is no way I, or anyone else, would have posted that OP.
I stand by my post.
I think it’s important to remember that we’re only dealing with selective imagery here. Perhaps for some, too much is left to the imagination and they can’t – perhaps won’t – make the connection between what they see on a screen and what it means.
Add another dimension to the imagery you see, sound: The screams of thousands of people in the seconds before they die, crushed, burned, ripped apart. The cries for God, for husbands, for wives, for their children.
You understand, I hope ** The Great Gazoo**, that posters who witnessed the event and who lost friends are emotional. It is desperately insensitive of you.
Perhaps you missed these words in the OP:
I see a disclaimer, I see acknowledgement of the human factor, I see contempt for the hijackers, and, yes, I see the fact that he, among others, saw the sheer awesomeness of the collisions, explosions and collapses in and of themselves exclusively. Why the latter invalidates the former for you I do not know.
Again, your hyperbole is showing - I, myself, was contemplating starting the same thread, since I understand where Gazoo is coming from. Perhaps his wording disassociating the devastation from the aesthetics wasn’t clear enough, but, as I pointed out, he’s not the only one that saw it.
Some people thought Christ in a jar of piss was “beneath contempt,” too. Even in tragedy, beauty - dare I say art - can be found by many, regardless of whether anyone else thinks so or not.
And, again, this is all if you remove the tragedy, which is near impossible, but could it be done, the OP is perfectly valid (which was, after all, the basis for the OP).
Let’s just stick a big old “YMMV” sticker on this thread, if that’s not too trite. In its simplest terms, it does apply here.
Esprix
Is it any stranger than wearing a crucifix? Or displaying one? I mean, some guy was NAILED to a friggin’ piece of wood, died in horrible agony, and we look on this as beautiful!
(To note-I’m not witnessing, since there were a GREAT many crucified, but we see Crucifiction art as beautiful, as we do many religious art, which is quite gory-think of the Sacred Heart paintings for all you Catholics…)
Esprix, I get what you’re saying, but I strongly disagree. It would be possible to admire the destruction of the WTC if it had been a planned implosion, like the old casinos in Vegas that have all been dynamited.
But as London Calling points out, I can hear the screams, which makes the sight NOT beautiful, but gruesome. YMMV.
It was awesome. The problem is that people have begun to redefine “awesome” as always good. It was awesome in the sense that it was massive, it left everyone in awe and wonder.
I don’t think it’s wrong to say it was beautiful either. I’ve heard the mushroom cloud described as beautiful. In fact, the bible even describes Lucifer as beautiful. It was tragic, of course. Anyone who says it wasn’t a tragedy, now that’s a heartless person. No one here has said or implied that.
We are looking at a catastrophic event. The sheer size of the planes and of the buildings is incredible. To see something of such enormity, does leave you in awe. Every witness had an “oh my God” type of response when they saw it because of the titanic structures of man-made design at it’s finest being brought to their knees. To criticize anyone for commenting on this spectacular destruction is to belittle it. It was gargantuan. How can that not leave you in awe? Do you really think New Yorkers are so hardened that they would simply yawn and walk away, saying “hmmph, that was awful, oh well.”
People’s response to shocking events is “look at that!” Why? because it’s uncommon and amazing. A less tragic version of this is a person with a severe deformity. Some people gawk, other people try not to notice. At least the gawkers are honest and acknowledge that they notice. They’re not pretenders.
Why do people flock to see some dude on a motorcycle jump over fifteen semi trucks? Not because we hope he dies, but because we marvel at the spectacular. It’s part of being human. I think the “beauty” that people see in the explosion is entirely structural from an aesthetic standpoint. In other words, the beauty was on the outside where we saw the awesome destruction. The ugly part was the inside and with the terrifying losses. You know friends, I knew a girl like that once.
I guess I can understand how people might feel as the OP does. But believe me, if you saw this happen with your own eyes, if you heard and felt and smelled it, if you were afraid that your friends had died or that you might die, you would feel differently.
As an example:
Today was my second day back at work. This afternoon, I was sitting in a cramped temporary office in midtown Manhattan, surrounded by my coworkers. (As far as I know, all but six of Morgan Stanley’s 3700 World Trade Center employees have been accounted for). I was doing a web search for maps and graphics relating to the disaster (for a coworker’s presentation to the board, or some such thing) when I came upon a picture of the plane about to hit the building I used to work in. I literally could not move for about 20 seconds… I just sat there staring at it.
Yes, when I saw my building in flames, I was riveted by what I was seeing. But I wasn’t fascinated by the “awesome” spectacle or moved by the beauty or able to analyze what I was seeing at all. I was frozen in terror and trying not to scream.
Art imitates life; life imitates the SDMB.
FWIW (which is damned little): I no longer believe Gazoo intended to be offensive, and I agree with others who’ve suggested that it was simply an unfortunate choice of words.
Therefore, I’d like to retract my former bitchy response.
For what it’s worth, the current issue of New York Magazine describes the scene as beautiful in two articles. From
this article by Michael Wolff:
And from the introduction to the eye witness accounts:
Warning for people who might read this issue on line or in print: the article by James Cramer will rip your heart out. The rest of the magazine is sad but bearable.
Let’s try that link again.
Apparently, it won’t work if it’s parsed with vB.
I think if I’m to be honest with myself, I have to admit I stand in awe at the terrorists’ audacity. The spectacle of their attack, coupled by the fact that we had so many camera angles from which to view it almost immediately, overwhelms my senses. Of course, I did not lose anyone I love or even know in the attack; and I do not live close to NYC or Washington.
Either that night, or Wednesday evening, Peter Jennings was talking to a group of journalists, and one came the closest to expressing my own sense of begrudging admiration for the terrorists themselves. One cannot help contemplating their willpower, especially in light of the extensiveness of their plans - to come to the US, to enroll in a flight school, etc.
In so many ways, I’m reminded of Kurtz’ speech towards the end of Apocalpyse Now, when he talks about the pile of hewn arms and “the genius of that.” I feel that I’m struck by the genius of their daring even though I know I disdain it. I look at the footage, realize the agony of it, yet feel the terrorists have hijacked not only the planes, but my sensibility as well.
vBulletin adds spaces in the middle of long character strings to keep people from having to scroll side to side. Copy and paste these two half URLS together into the address bar to get it to work:
http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/entertainment/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010918/
and
entertainment/afp/Composer_creates_storm_describing_attack_on_US_as__work_of_art_.html
Grrr… can’t even get the correction right. Let’s try this without forgetting to turn off the automatically parse URLs option:
http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/entertainment/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010918/
and
entertainment/afp/Composer_creates_storm_describing_attack_on_US_as__work_of_art_.html
Clearly, Yahoo is working in conjunction with the Taliban to suppress important information.
The bastards are EVERYWHERE.