[QUOTE=Me]
…Big Money hate this thing. They hate the very idea that the sweet, sweet flow of cash might somehow be tamped down. The well-being of their fellow citizens means nothing to them, they have already proved this abundantly. Why would we trust them, why would we trust their paid mouthpieces?..
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Other Guy]
…Uh huh. In elucidator-land, it’s all class warfare, all the time. I guess you haven’t noticed that the real big lobbyists and big money are congregating on the Democrat’s side, huh? Rent-seeking is much easier when the government is run by gullible activists…
[/QUOTE]
So, here’s your chance. If you are willing to stretch credulity right to the breaking point, you could claim you didn’t realize the topic of the moment was heath insurance reform. Even though I was very specific about “Big Money hates this thing”
Still, you could claim that you were making your assertion about general trends in donations, etc. Its a shabby way out, but it pretty much all you got, otherwise, you’re totally boned on this one.
However, if you spurn such merciful advice, and are determined to fall on your sword on this one, then you really have to show the spending that is directed towards the issue at hand. Where you will be clobbered, if you are so foolish.
Wow, that’s a lot to assume from a one line post. Have you actually tried to listen? Me, I’m a “liberal” (even tho ultimately I think the political spectrum is a self-sustaining illusion which belongs in the scrap heap of history) because for me their values dovetail quite well with mine: a desire to preserve the enviroment both for its own sake as well as us humans; the willingness to not ignore inconvenient facts no matter how painful; a strong sense of fair play for all; compassion for the less fortunate, disadvantaged, if not oppressed; and a desire to assist others to become better human beings in their own personal idiom. As a human race united we stand, divided we’ll fall. The current GOP is against almost all of that, in most cases vehemently so; no, the central message of Christianity, as practiced by many on the right, is not every man for himself (or herself), for one thing. I do have a healthy sense of personal responsibility (teach a a man to fish and all that, before you ask). I hereby Pit anyone, anywhere, liberal or conservative, who puts ideology and “in-group/out-group” dynamics above the common good (there are a number of liberals here whom I have no use for at all, one of which I currently have a disagreement with in another Pit thread.
Can you honestly say that none of that rings a bell for you at all? There aren’t any conservative public figures or fellow posters that you are willing to call out? If not, then no, we don’t have anything else to say to each other, and divided we will crash and burn at our present rate. Me, they are a direct result of the things I’ve experienced in my life and the choices I’ve made in the close to 20 years after I started to unfuck myself. You?
I don’t think there has in recent memory been this degree of irrational loonery. And I’m pretty sure that there has never been the sheer quantity (both in the number of nutburgers and the amount of off-the-wall madness that each nutburger cherishes within).
Scariest of all–I’m damn sure that such irrational, willful ignorance has never been so well organized. The Nazis might have been the closest contenders in this category *[NOTE: seriously–I am NOT comparing the tea-baggers to the Nazis (in this post, anyway) in any way other than **A–they both are/were well organized, and B–*both of their precepts are/were moonbatshit crazy] but they can’t touch the tea-baggers because these idiots today live in a free society with an open internet and other free media. These droolers have a choice.
That there exists such a large, organized, movement espousing utterly nonsensical and dangerous “ideas”, and the people comprising it do so voluntary and freely (cf. the Nazi Party) makes this movement–and the very zeitgeist that we find ourselves in–baffling, shameful, and terrifying.
So lots of people think Obama is a nigger communist muslim from the moon, but he’s actually a Christian from Hawaii. And? Are his feelings hurt or what? He’s the POTUS, which means he’s a sociopathic killer who represents the rich fucks at all costs by definition. Why project your hopes and dreams on him, especially if you want to call yourself a lib? That’s even crazier than the tea party.
Facts and logic are a threat to modern civilization and government.
You just discovered advertising and public relations.
Historically, people who try to take part in governance get shot or arrested. Do as your told, vote for one of two preapproved candidates if you want, and keep your head down. The society is wealthy, so you’ll probably be OK. Not exactly inspirational, but it’s about as good as humans can ever aspire to.
Like Walker in Wisconsin and Snider in Michigan, financing Repubs reaps huge rewards for corporations. They are on a union busting, taking retirees and sick peoples, money jerks. They work for banks and the Koch suckers.
Historically, we’re most likely to be Chinese peasants. But I’m guessing nobody reading this thread actually is a Chinese peasant.
Are you saying that an average American who takes a part in governance is going to be shot or arrested? If so, I’d like to hear what you consider taking a part in governance means. For example, does it involve explosives?
No, I wasn’t being sarcastic. Delighted you were amused.
Others agreed with me on this point: Right-wingers in the U.S.A. have redefined “liberal” to include views which in Europe are called “right of center.” That you seem not to understand this rather proves the point.
Your criticism of the Health Care bill may be partly correct, but again this supports my view. If you really think this health care bill is one left-wingers would opt for if they were in control, then you get a comedy award.
Coming back to something from earlier in the thread:
Can you enumerate, specifically, what’s wrong with teachers being unionized? Leaving aside all other public unions, what objection do you have with teachers having the protection of a union behind them?
The anti-union sentiment amongst the right is understandable, given that unions are, in fact, the strongest socialist aspect of American culture, but when these ideas come from working/middle class Americans they strike me as being so utterly ahistoric and ignorant I’m dumbfounded by them, and I’m always curious to hear their roots.
Honestly I thought we already did this, like 6 weeks ago. And I don’t want to make the conversation about me. But if it will put your mind to rest, I’m liberal (or very liberal), as you would understand that term, on gay marriage/civil unions, on raising (some) taxes to pay off our debt, on drug legalization at the federal level, on saying no to posting the 10 commandments and other religious claptrap in schools/gov buildings/congress, and in general on creating policies that force businesses to account for externalities.
The car that is the nation’s finances is hurtling towards a cliff. Obamacare steps on the gas. Your argument boils down to, “But we were going to fall off the cliff! At least we did something!”
If you want to look less stupid, feel free to read this.
At what point will left leaning people actually look past Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter and realize that there are some intelligent people on the other side with very real concerns. Right leaning people need to do the same, but this board seems majority left. A few points…
One of my pet issues is welfare. Most lefties are in favor of welfare, but have you really looked at how it is implemented in this country? It is creating a separate class of people. In my state, you lose benefits if you dare to marry the father of your child and acually display him in your home. Low income families need help, but this is just wrong.
Abortion…while I am against abortion, especially after the first trimester, I am a huge supporter of Planned Parenthood. The fact is that PP is where teens go to avoid pregnancy. It’s where I got my birth control back in the 70’s and it’s still dispencing the pill without parental permission which is crucial to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
Unions…I am actually a proud union member, but I have watched my state lose a lot of jobs due to unreasonable union demands.
Health care…I don’t like the bill the way it is written, but it is just common sense that ANY health care coverage for people that don’t currently have it is going to be cheaper than those same people getting all their medical care at emergency rooms.
Government spending…If my neighbor needs something and I can afford to help him, I am right there with a smile on my face, but if I don’t have it, I don’t have it. Going into debt will not help either of us in the long run.
I actually don’t even know whether I am mostly left or mostly right or just muddling up the middle, but I don’t have to listen very long to see that both sides have very legitimate concerns.
Well, I guess this Pit thread has become a retread of other threads, yet again.
The fact that this board swings very lefty is pretty much beyond argument, so I don’t put much faith into what 2 or 3 whackos here say, in their opinion, what left-of-center is. And since I’m an American, living in America, this board is based out of America, and we’re talking about the American (sort of ) president and the American healthcare laws and so on and so on, I think American standards are the one that should hold sway, not European ones.
So, let me try to help you look less foolish: you seem to imply that conservatives have recently re-defined our political spectrum to make ‘conservative’ the new ‘centrist’. I’d argue that, looking at the 200+ years of history of this country, that the liberals have steadily redefined the political spectrum leftward; to the extent that JFK would be considered downright conservative given his policies, maybe even a Tea Party guy.
The point is, the spectrum moves due to outside events. After 9/11, even half of the squishy surrender-monkeys in the Democratic party wanted to kick some ass.
Well, we sure did that, now didn’t we? But “kick ass” makes it sound like a bit of middle-school rugby. What we did was slaughter tens of thousands of innocent people and make ourselves an international pariah. About the only people who opposed this from the git-go were us dirty fucking hippies. Again. As before. And we were right. Again. As before.
Had your full support, did we, Smashy? Right there with us, were you?
Uh, the left wingers were in control. Where does this need to blame others for your own failings come from? This whole thread is about what is wrong with conservative America when it should be about what is wrong with Liberal America even when they have a majority. What a bunch of whiners.
It’s one thing to disagree with the factuality of the point I was making, but your response suggests you missed it altogether. I won’t say more (even if this is BBQ Pit ) but I am curious if even now you can demonstrate that you even know what I’m talking about.
I can only answer to what you wrote, not what is in you head. So, rather than have me try to interpret what you are thinking it makes more sense for you to come out and say what you think I have misinterpreted and correct it.
The Democrats are not left. They are center-right, at least as the rest of the Western world sees politics.
If the “real” left had been in power and had crafted a health reform bill, you would be seeing a health insurance system similar to Canada.
This is why when you see figures like “X percentage of Americans do not like Obamacare”, you have to realize that there are many on the (actual) left who do not like it because IT DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH.
I know I sometimes fail to “fully connect the dots” but your feigned ignorance here puts me at a loss. Please reread my post you responded to:
and/or my earlier #71 and if you still don’t get my point nor understand why your response was almost non sequitur, post again and, after laughing my ass off, I’ll explain in a larger font and mostly one-syllable words.
I also said before that no one is doing much confronting the rising costs, not even the new health care reform. The American way (and republicans are also specially guilty of this) is to not do much on the way of reforms until disaster strikes.
I picture that what is happening with the democrats and health reform would be like if republicans had decided to control the Housing bubble and then many economists would also had said their plans were not going to do much; however, looking back, even simple reforms would had exposed the fakers on many of the loans and the dangers that we got with the weapons of mass financial destruction.
I would picture that then if republicans had keep an eye on the abuses and passed mild reforms then, that they would had been blamed for the mild recession that would had taken place if reforms had been in place (A lot of that money would still had been lost in housing, so less for investing); therefore, like the good American politicians that they are, it is better to do nothing or half baked reforms.
Until disaster strikes, then finally politicians will pass the reforms that where actually needed yesterday… and pass the blame to the next party in power.
) president and the American healthcare laws and so on and so on, I think American standards are the one that should hold sway, not European ones.
) but I am curious if even now you can demonstrate that you even know what I’m talking about.