WTF? Pay Up or We Let Your House Burn Down?

[emacknight]

@jtgain

What I am saying is that he should have been billed for the full market value of putting out the fire.

Should’ve, could’ve, would’ve.

There is no *full market value *for putting out a fire. It wasn’t one of the options, it wasn’t a system that this fire department offered.

Instead, what they offered was an opt-in subscription service for $75 a year. Take it or leave it.

Guess what Cranick choose?

@jtgain

They have all of their fixed expenses anyways.

Right now they have all their fixed expenses, for of having that is getting the tax revenue from the city, and the $75 from this community.

Next year, they’ll find they have fewer people paying the $75 (Cranick wasn’t the only one).

And the year ofter that municipal tax payers are going to start trying to opt out as well.

@jtgain

The marginal cost of putting out one fire would be small by comparison.

You have no idea what the marginal cost would be. And as I’ve said before, some how you need to factor in the risk to the fire fighters involved, and the insurance policies that cover them. For the love of god, won’t someone think about the fire fighters?

@jtgain

Bill like a private company would and make it a profitable trip out to the house.

They could, and as pointed out, they choose not to. Instead, they offered a subscription service…

I guess now is the time to point out again that in the past, less than 50% of “customers” paid, hardly a profitable venture.

@jtgain

Your slippery slope argument that nobody would pay the $75 doesn’t hold water. If that were the case, then nobody would buy health insurance since you can just go to the emergency room if you are sick, skip out on the bill, and then laugh when the hospital can’t enforce the judgment against you. Why not let a few people die in the waiting room to make sure people start ponying up for health insurance?

In fact, all commerce should grind to a halt and contracts should be outlawed since civil judgments are meaningless.

Except that people do do that, and the result is the cost being pushed to the next customer. A visit to the ER or ride in an ambulance isn’t $1200. It’s $600 plus the cost of all the people that skipped out before you. It’s part of the reason health care is so high in the US.

Incidentally, shop lifting is also passed on to the paying customers.

In this case though, the “paying customers” are the tax payers in the near by municipality. But it’s unlikely they’ll approve a tax hike to cover the losses. Instead they’ll make cuts to an already over loaded fire house. They could also just up the subscription fee to $150, but then even few people would pay.

Going beyond Cranick, there are millions of people that live without fire services. It’s their choice, and some times that means they lose their house.

[emacknight]

@jtgain

@emacknight

Why didn’t all the other stations in all the other surrounding areas, volunteer their services to him? Why all the blame on just this one?

Because this particular fire department was RIGHT THERE fire hose in one hand and limp dick in the other watching his house burn down. He was offering to pay, but the bureaucratic rules wouldn’t allow a “per incident” pay rate.

All terrible reasons to let a house burn to the ground.

But before that.

He called, they refused to go. Why didn’t he call around, shop for other options? Why didn’t other fire houses respond to his plea?

His house was pretty much gone by the time they got there, and when there they were busy making sure their paying customers were taken care of.

[CannyDan]

@jtgain

@CannyDan

gonzo, quit being such an ass. You too jt. It isn’t seventy five bucks. It is seventy five bucks a year, every year as the shared burden of providing for the maintenance of a professional fire fighting system.

Seventy five bucks doesn’t compensate even one fireman for the time he spent on Cranick’s fire. It doesn’t purchase so much as the chrome bell on the fire engine. Hell, seventy five bucks probably doesn’t purchase a single fireman’s boot. Offering to pay it now, after the fact, is disingenuous at best and the ugliest kind of open deceit at worst.

Of course you don’t have the option of paying $75 after your house catches on fire anymore than you have the option of buying full coverage auto insurance after you have totaled your car. What I am saying is that he should have been billed for the full market value of putting out the fire.

They have all of their fixed expenses anyways. The marginal cost of putting out one fire would be small by comparison. Bill like a private company would and make it a profitable trip out to the house.

Your slippery slope argument that nobody would pay the $75 doesn’t hold water. If that were the case, then nobody would buy health insurance since you can just go to the emergency room if you are sick, skip out on the bill, and then laugh when the hospital can’t enforce the judgment against you. Why not let a few people die in the waiting room to make sure people start ponying up for health insurance?

In fact, all commerce should grind to a halt and contracts should be outlawed since civil judgments are meaningless.

It isn’t a slippery slope, it is the actual experience of this community. Billing in arrears has a success rate (noted upthread) of no better than 50%. And they already tried this with Cranick himself. He had a previous fire. When confronted, he promised to pay. So they put the fire out. And guess what? He then refused to pay. And has continued to refuse, both that arrears payment for his actual fire and all the other future-subscription payments, since.

People buy health care insurance not only for the emergency services a hospital ER will provide regardless of ability to pay, but also for all the other health care non-emergency services that they need, for which there is no freebie available. Your equivalence is false.

Some people, like Cranick, insist on making stupid decisions just (apparently) to flaunt their ability to make a decision contrary to the consensus of their community. Cranick chose not to subscribe to fire service then, when faced with a loss, promised to pay, then reneged on the promise, then demanded that the same exact scenario be provided again for his next fire. The community, through its agents the fire brigade, refused the unreasonable demand. Good for them! And tough shit for Cranick. He can perhaps fund his reconstruction out of all the ‘seventy five dollars-es’ he’s saved up.

My giant fuck you! to him is merely gratuitous. But I’m enjoying it.

[gonzomax]

http://www2.wjbf.com/news/2010/oct/06/would-aiken-county-firefighters-watch-yo-34732-vi-53892/ Here is a nearby county that adds the cost into the property taxes. The firechief says if taxes are not paid they will still put out the fire. The reason for the controversy is that people are shocked firemen would sit and watch it. Not all people can revel in other people misery. Good for you guys having such distance from the suffering of others. It makes life easy for you.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@ajb867

I can’t wait till my job goes this way so I can standby and do nothing for 90% of my 911 calls.

Your job is already this way. You don’t get any calls from people outside the jurisdiction that pays for the 911 service. If you really feel this strongly about it, why don’t you advertise your direct phone extension to neighboring cities and counties? Is it because that’s not your job? Are you a heartless jerk for not helping people even though you have the means to do so?

[gonzomax]

From a firefighters web site.
I have been a firefighter for 34 years. Who ever gave the order for them to stand, should be hung. The family should get a lawyer and sue to get their house rebuilt. What is this world coming to when compassion for a man and his animals takes a back seat to a fee?

This is bull… We believe it is a firefighters duty to protect. It is a disgrace to the service.

I suppose people with the compassion and sense of a baboon could justify it. But anyone who feels for his fellow man would be appalled.

[Garfield226]

Boy, “a firefighters web site.” sure made me change my whole outlook on this. Good job. Whoever taught you how to copy and paste should be shot.

I feel for the people who all paid their fee and then watched the firefighters save this idiot’s house the first time.

[gonzomax]

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/191077 Here is an article that says some of the firefighters wept while the house burned down. Some are having trouble sleeping.
Many who become firemen feel a calling to the service. The first time I heard the story, I wondered how a fireman could do that. Apparently they would have been fired.
Nobody could actually feel sorry for people who paid their fees while they saved a house od someone who didn’t. I can not believe a person could be a cold prick like that. I suspect most people would be fine with it.
They could have given him a fine or a much larger bill. Hell. his neighbor offered a lot more than 75 for them to get out of the truck.
It was never about the money. it was about making an example of him. They had lots of ways to get the 75 bucks , and a lot more.

[emacknight]

@gonzomax

http://www2.wjbf.com/news/2010/oct/06/would-aiken-county-firefighters-watch-yo-34732-vi-53892/ Here is a nearby county that adds the cost into the property taxes. The firechief says if taxes are not paid they will still put out the fire. The reason for the controversy is that people are shocked firemen would sit and watch it. Not all people can revel in other people misery. Good for you guys having such distance from the suffering of others. It makes life easy for you.

My distance from his suffering grew when I learned that he started the fire, and that he’s done this before.

Tell me something, if I got shit-faced drunk, then wrapped by $50,000 car around a tree, would you give me the same sympathy? Would you say to the responding officers and subsequent jury, “how can you guys be so heartless, he destroyed his car, hasn’t he suffered enough?”

[PunditLisa]

@gonzomax

http://www2.wjbf.com/news/2010/oct/06/would-aiken-county-firefighters-watch-yo-34732-vi-53892/ Here is a nearby county that adds the cost into the property taxes. The firechief says if taxes are not paid they will still put out the fire.

Not a valid argument. If property taxes aren’t paid, the government can and does routinely force the sale of the property so that they can recover the unpaid taxes. Ergo, the fire department will ultimately be made whole, because the government is first in line ahead of all other creditors, including the bank.

[Rhythmdvl]

I sure hope the firemen filed and paid every penny sales tax for things they bought over the internet! ’

Cause if not, well, fuck them, their personal belongings, and their pets. Let someone come over, steal everything right under the nose of the police (who will make sure that the bandits don’t disturb some honest taxpayer’s property), and give their pets away (but tell them they killed them).

It would serve them right to lose everything, the fucking scofflaws.

[emacknight]

gonzomax;

I wanted to let you know I’m having a fire in my back yard, and if anything happens I’m holding you personally accountable. Fuck personal responsibility!

[gonzomax]

My first reaction when I read the story was how bad the firemen had to feel. It took a lot of looking to find someone who discussed their reaction. They are not cold bureaucrats. I played softball with several firemen that would never let that happen. it had to be very difficult for them. I feel sorry for them.

[Rick]

@Rhythmdvl

I sure hope the firemen filed and paid every penny sales tax for things they bought over the internet! ’

Cause if not, well, fuck them, their personal belongings, and their pets. Let someone come over, steal everything right under the nose of the police (who will make sure that the bandits don’t disturb some honest taxpayer’s property), and give their pets away (but tell them they killed them).

It would serve them right to lose everything, the fucking scofflaws.

WTF? Over

[BigT]

@CannyDan

@jtgain

Of course you don’t have the option of paying $75 after your house catches on fire anymore than you have the option of buying full coverage auto insurance after you have totaled your car. What I am saying is that he should have been billed for the full market value of putting out the fire.

They have all of their fixed expenses anyways. The marginal cost of putting out one fire would be small by comparison. Bill like a private company would and make it a profitable trip out to the house.

Your slippery slope argument that nobody would pay the $75 doesn’t hold water. If that were the case, then nobody would buy health insurance since you can just go to the emergency room if you are sick, skip out on the bill, and then laugh when the hospital can’t enforce the judgment against you. Why not let a few people die in the waiting room to make sure people start ponying up for health insurance?

In fact, all commerce should grind to a halt and contracts should be outlawed since civil judgments are meaningless.

It isn’t a slippery slope, it is the actual experience of this community. Billing in arrears has a success rate (noted upthread) of no better than 50%. And they already tried this with Cranick himself. He had a previous fire. When confronted, he promised to pay. So they put the fire out. And guess what? He then refused to pay. And has continued to refuse, both that arrears payment for his actual fire and all the other future-subscription payments, since.

People buy health care insurance not only for the emergency services a hospital ER will provide regardless of ability to pay, but also for all the other health care non-emergency services that they need, for which there is no freebie available. Your equivalence is false.

Some people, like Cranick, insist on making stupid decisions just (apparently) to flaunt their ability to make a decision contrary to the consensus of their community. Cranick chose not to subscribe to fire service then, when faced with a loss, promised to pay, then reneged on the promise, then demanded that the same exact scenario be provided again for his next fire. The community, through its agents the fire brigade, refused the unreasonable demand. Good for them! And tough shit for Cranick. He can perhaps fund his reconstruction out of all the ‘seventy five dollars-es’ he’s saved up.

My giant fuck you! to him is merely gratuitous. But I’m enjoying it.

The thing you guys don’t seem to get is that they were only out $75. That’s it. So 50% of people paying back on the actual cost of putting out the fire–surely that’s more than $75.

And, like I said, they can always put a lien on his property, and then take it away if he doesn’t pay. It now sounds like that, if they don’t even bother recovering any money from it, they still would come out ahead. And getting your house taken away from you should be just as effective a punishment as having your house burn down, without all the controversial ethical implications.

Now, if they really couldn’t recover the house, I have a little more sympathy. Having such a little chance to actually save it, and knowing that you can get it to go out without using water directly on the house, it might make sense to throw in an example.

But, if people were crying about it, I take it was not a decision made by the firefighters. It seems the person in charge of the finances of the firehouse is the real bad person here.

[kidchameleon]

@BigT

And, like I said, they can always put a lien on his property, and then take it away if he doesn’t pay.

With a magic wand? Or is that fairy dust?

[Rick]

they were out $575. Read upthread. $75 is the subscription fee, there is a $500 charge to roll the equipment. (which is usually covered by homeowner’s insurance).
so the fire department is already out $575 for the first fire, plus however many years at $75 since the first fire, and now you want them to dig deeper into that hole?
You are aware that insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. How many times does the fire department have to get fucked by this asshole before they say enough is enough?
Also as was mentioned upthread, they can’t put a lien on the property.

[emacknight]

@gonzomax

My first reaction when I read the story was how bad the firemen had to feel. It took a lot of looking to find someone who discussed their reaction. They are not cold bureaucrats. I played softball with several firemen that would never let that happen. it had to be very difficult for them. I feel sorry for them.

I agree, I sure hope Cranick feels like shit for putting them in that position. If only he had paid that $75. Tell me again, why didn’t he?

[emacknight]

@BigT

And, like I said, they can always put a lien on his property, and then take it away if he doesn’t pay.

You know, his house was on fire right? With or without them it would have suffered massive fire damage. So now you want the fire department to put a lien on his burned out shell of a house? How heartless is that? He loses house AND the fire department puts a lien on it?

[Monty]

@Rhythmdvl

I sure hope the firemen filed and paid every penny sales tax for things they bought over the internet! ’

Cause if not, well, fuck them, their personal belongings, and their pets. Let someone come over, steal everything right under the nose of the police (who will make sure that the bandits don’t disturb some honest taxpayer’s property), and give their pets away (but tell them they killed them).

It would serve them right to lose everything, the fucking scofflaws.

Wait a moment. Are the firefighters scofflaws or not? Seems to me like the rage should be at the people who created the situation where the firefighters are obeying the law as it currently stands which, of course, had the MIQ burning his house down.