WW I, Korea, WW II and Israel; Heads You Win Should Not be Tails I Lose

The premise of this thread it that when a party starts a war and loses, the defending side should be allowed to finish it. In the cases of WW I, Korea and Vietnam the aggressors, respectively Germany/Austro-Hungarian Empire, North Korea and North Vietnam started wars. The wars ended in armistices, not in military victories. In all cases complete victory was possible but the West, being “nice” left the losing side to their own devices. In all cases it has leapt us to bite us.

**WW I (armistice) ** – This case is perhaps the least clear. The Austro-Hungarian Empire, tied by treaty and history to Germany (only recently Prussia and other principalities) tried to take over the Balkans, lured by the chaos surrounding the murder of the Archduke of Sarajevo on June 28, 1914. (source). After a long war with unprecedented bloodshed the Austro-Hungarian Empire was split into Austria, Hungary Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Czechoslovakia, and the Balkans reconstituted into Yugoslavia. However the core of the countries remained intact and were not occupied. The terms of this armistice did not sit easily with a still-intact and independent Austria and Germany. They covertly did not comply with the disarmament mandates of Versailles. All else is history.

**Korea (armistice) ** – Probably the strongest case. Korea was historically under the sway of either Japan or China (source). In or about 1910 Japan seized control. When WW II ended Korea was partitioned between the northern half, occupied by the USSR and the southern half, occupied by the U.S. There was, to my understanding, little reason for this generosity to the U.S.S.R. since they took astonishingly little part in the defeat of Japan in the war. In Europe, at least a colorable argument could be made that they earned a share of the spoils, and effective control of Eastern Europe. When NK invaded in 1950 there was little reason for not conquering and holding NK, reuniting it under South Korea’s military dictatorship.

Since then, NK has clearly not found the status quo acceptable. They are now a nuclear power, leaving the West with little choice but surrender or a full-scale war before NK poses a mortal threat to the civilized world.

WW II – This is an example in the opposite direction, of what happens when there is total victory, mostly by the civilized world. While we have not had “kumbaya” perfection (see above regarding Korea, and also other small wars such as Vietnam and the Middle East), the world has by and large not had major wars. Victory was total. Japan and Germany are not a threat to world safety nor are they likely to be.

Israel (armistice in 1948 and 1956, victory in 1967 and 1973) – Another good example. 1948 and 1956 ended in standstills. The Arabs kept on attacking. In 1967 they closed the Straits of Tiran, threatening to throttle Israel’s imports of oil from Iran. Israel obliterated Egypt’s air force on the ground. The war lasted six days.

Since then the rest of the world has sought to give the Arabs a do-over. Trump finally recognized Israel’s choice of capitals. The Arabs should have sued for peace when they had a chance. Israel won and the world “boo-hoos” at their exercise of the victory. If they were anything like North Vietnam, Myanmar or other victorious countries there would have been a bloodbath.

Summary – A loss in war should severely and permanently penalize the aggressor. Germany and Japan were reduced to second-rate, though affluent powers. I don’t think that’s such a bad fate for the people of the Arab world, as opposed to their “leaders.”

What’s the debate?

I’d also question your summary of some of those events.

The only situation I can think of where that is accurate is Korea. The world would’ve been much better off had the UN forces conquered the entire country of Korea. However China put up a fight, and who knows how long this would have lasted if that was the goal.

WW1 if anything was a situation where too much was demanded from the losing party, which helped cause WW2.

No matter what happened with Israel, they’d still have to deal with a ton of shit from their neighbors. I don’t see anything they do being helpful.

Also I don’t know if north vietnam were the aggressors. They were fighting a multi decade war against French & US imperialists.

Could this be one of those “I’m going to post an awful version of history in an attempt to lure people into agreement with my hidden agenda?”

In this case, I don’t think the hidden agenda is “Arabs suck!!!1!” That isn’t hidden at all. No, I think the hidden agenda is, “Stalin’s domination of Eastern Europe was a great thing because the dumb Nazis started the war. Suck it, Poland!!1!”

Add to it Germany’s failure to demilitarize. The payments under Versailles were measurably eased.

Let’s get one thing clear; the argument is about all of Israel, not “settlements” or “1967 borders.”

I’m sorry, I’m not smart enough to understand your post. Please clarify.

Personally, I think the U.S. should pay reparations to Canada for those Fenian raids. Giving us Vermont seems fair.

You want the winners of wars to be able to crush the instigators of the war, if they wish. Ergo, I think your hidden agenda is staunchly pro-Stalinist.

FDR romanced Stalin. I’m only 60 so I didn’t have a vote then, but to my mind FDR belongs in the ranks of Pierce, Buchanan, Nixon and Carter in the bottom of the barrel as a President.

Most powers depict their military adventurism as defensive in nature, even if they have to ship their troops halfway across the world. There’s no shortage of people who would dispute the OP and say Vietnam and Korea are examples of American aggression, or that Israel is just another European settler-colony. If we’re going to flatly declare unlikely moral sentiment, I’ll say that opposing armies should meet each other, shake hands, sing some songs, shoot their officers, and march back home and lead a worker’s revolution.

I think this is irrelevant to this pro-Stalin faux debate, and I’m not going to stand idly by as you deny the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe in the same way that Gerald Ford did.

The outcomes of wars have nothing to do with being “nice”.

Countries, including the United States, cannot simply snap their fingers and defeat any opposing army they choose and then impose whatever terms they want to. So countries settle for the most favorable terms they can get for the amount of resources (which include casualties) they are willing to pay.

Minnesota is already the Canada of the USA.

The Twin Cities would instantly become the third largest metro area in Canada.

i’m 44. I didn’t have a vote then either.

I think the goal is: To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!

The basic premise of international law since the creation of the United Nations has precisely been to penalise the waging of wars of aggression: but, of course, it isn’t always clear who, in any given set of circumstances, is the aggressor or whether their conduct of a war constitutes a breach of the law on aggression - and the definition of “penalise” is also variable: seen in the long historical view, did Germany and Japan suffer from their penalty for that long, let alone permanently, and what sort of peace would there have been had they suffered more and differently? With the best will in the world, realpolitik necessarily means moderating the application of strict principles to ensure a genuine and lasting peace.

It is so wonderful to see someone learning the lessons of 1871.

It will work so very well for 1919 and even for Stalin on both sides of the timeline…

I wonder if all the other places the text is posted will like to respond to the pretended orientation

The Austro-Hungarian empire was a large multi-ethnic empire. Splitting it up made sense. Making “Germany pay” made sense.

What didn’t make sense was making Germany pay so much it was completely impossible to do so, and pay so much it messed up the economies of the countries on the receiving end. (I.e. France was entitled to a lot of steel and coal, which ruined the market for domestic French steel and coal, and no selling it back to Germany, cause Germany didn’t have any money.)

But that aside, what bizarre revenge fantasy do you have in mind as the correct way to deal with post WWI Germany and Austria?

No actually it did not and it was destructive.

It is based on whatever fantasy history llike in the Berlin thread, in this fantasy history it seems that the German reich was not disarmed…

The OP contradicts (or is a non-sequitur to) the thread title.

“Heads you Win Should Not be Tails I Lose” would translate as “If you win (the war), that should not translate as me losing (territory, concessions)”. Or, more conventionally, “War should not have to be a zero-sum mentality. Just because you win should not mean I have lost”.

The OP seems to be arguing the exact opposite. Hence it should be titled "Heads You Win SHOULD be Tails I Lose"

You think they shouldn’t have payed anything? Say 5 years for at least some rebuilding and then 1% of GDP per year for a few decades to the countries where all the trenches and UXO were? Or did you ignore my second paragraph?