WW2 Gurus, I beseech thee.

Factual Questions
1

I have two items for you, the first one a request for some assistance finding out more about an obscure russian transport. The second is gun-related question, probably quite simple for those ‘in the know’

Item 1:

Today I was speaking with my grandfather, who was in the German army during World War Two. He’s Polish, but that’s a whole different story.

As many of you may have read, I’m a pilot, so I like to hear war stories that involve airplanes.

He told me a story about a Russian airplane that crashed near his villiage, just before he joined the war. Now, I’m pretty familiar with WW2 history, and extremely familiar with aircraft of the era. So what he told me about the aircraft really sets off bells for me.

He tells me that the reason he remembers the airplane is because it had six engines. Three on each wing. That’s not exactly a common configuration… Especially for Russian aircraft of that era…

So I started a search for what it may be. As far as I can tell, there’s only one aircraft that fits that description. The Tupolev ANT-20bis.

So here’s where you come in. I’ve done as much searching as I possibly could, and I can only find references to the ANT-20bis, most of which are from articles about the Maxim Gorky ANT-20, the airplane on which the bis was based. They mention that the airplane’s successor was the ANT-20bis, but there’s virtually no information on that aircraft. The only information I can find on ANY bis is specifically this aircraft. It crashed in Uzbekistan in 1942… A year later and thousands of miles away from the plane he saw.

What I need some help with, is I’m trying to find out how many were made, and where they ended up. I could also use some help with translating Tupolev’s page about the ANT-20 from Russian to English (Babelfish gives me more questions than answers.
Item two:

My grandfather was on the eastern front during the war. He said he’d encounted a semi-automatic russian rifle, that when the trigger was flipped around backwards, it was fully automatic. What was it?

2

I was going to suggest the ANT-20 for the airplane.

Don’t know about the firearm.

3

That sounds pretty unlikely from a practicality or engineering perspective, but then people have made some crazy guns over the years. You might want to ask him for some more details, like a description of the size, the magazine, etc.

The only selective-fire WW2 russian rifles I have heard of are the AVT-40, (but that apparently used a three-position safety catch, not the trigger) and the AVS36, which had a separate switch on the side of the rifle.

My guess would be the PPSh41, which was a submachine gun not a rifle, but did have fire mode selector inside the trigger guard.

4

It wasn’t really a Russian plane.

It was German.

Say Hello to Messerschmitt Me 323 “Gigant”
It answers the description in all respects, was huge enough to inspire comment & be remembered.

It must have been misidentified by the Poles (easy to do, from a wrecked plane, if you are a civilian in a pre-electronic society, & have no Internet or television media). Or, you Grandpa’s memory is fading.

I urge you to write down his stories & donate them after his death to the local University’s History Department.

5

How about get the History Channel to interview him now? :slight_smile:

6

Here’s another 6-engineed bomber:
http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/ant-16.html
The first prototype flew on July 3, 1933. Only few aircraft were built…Data for TB-4
Crew: 12, engine: 6 x AM-34R, wingspan: 54.0m, length: 32.0m, height: 11.7m, wing area: 422.0m2, start mass: 33280kg, empty mass: 21400kg, max speed: 200kph, ceiling: 2750m, range: 1450km, range w/max.payload: 775km, armament: 4 x 20mm cannons, 10 x 7.62mm MG, 4000kg of bomb"

So, although “only a few were built”, that’s more than the Ant-20bis.

7

Possible, certainly. There don’t seem to have been many other six-engine aircraft made in significant numbers. There was the Antonov 16 (very old, but you never know) and a few others, but they seem to have been made in very small numbers compared to the Gigant.

Again, if you can give any more details (especially roughly where and when this might have happened) it would be very helpful. In particular, if it was early it would support it being Russian, if it was later it would tend to indicate a German plane. Also, would be useful to know if it was in good condition or a burnt-out wreck.
He might conceivabley even have been looking at the remains of a carrier with parasite fighters if the wreckage was mangled enough.

8

St_Ides–please reply.

We’re very interested in this account.

9

Sorry, haven’t had a chance to check the SDMB today.

Ok, it was Eastern Poland in 1941 that this aircraft was seen. This was in the “first days of the war”, which for his village was the German attack on the Soviets. And it was definitely Russian.

Looks like the ME-321 got in too late for that. The ANT-16 only has two engines per wing. I’ve asked him about this a couple times, because of the odd number. It definitely had 3 engines per wing.

I’ll ask him more tonight, I’m just on my way out the door to pick him up.
As far as the rifle goes, it’s not the PPSh41, he refers to that separately - The drum fed “Peppesha”

Let’s just say he had an interesting war. Was infantry on the eastern front from '41 to '45, was on one of the last planes out of Breslau, wounded, was an interpreter (he speaks German, Russian, Polish, Ukranian and English)

10

Now that sounds about right. I agree with you about the “flipping” of the trigger, but stranger things have happened.

Looking at the AVT-40, the safety/fire selector is right behind the trigger, in the guard, and if flipped one way, would be semi auto, and the other would be full auto - but barely ever used. Timeline and area of use seem about right.

Everything seems to make sense, I’m betting this is the rifle he was talking about. I’ll print out a picture and ask him this weekend, I didn’t get a chance to ask him tonight.

He said the partisans used the rifle quite extensively, often supplied by airdrops. Some of the stories about the partisans are quite interesting though. I’ve never really looked extensively at them, and I didn’t know that there was infighting between the groups of partisans. He mentions times where the Nationalist partisans would find out the Communist partisans were getting an airdrop, so the Nationalists would go tell the Germans, who would capture the airdrop, and the Communists that were supposed to receive it. Crazy stuff. I think it was during one of these drops that he first got a close look at that rifle.

Thanks a bunch.

11

These the same partisans who fought the soviets up until the mid-fifties? There’s definitely a lot of history in that neck of the woods that has been glossed over by soviet propaganda, but is now starting to become more prominent.

12

According to one German general, when they first showed up in Ukraine, the Ukrainians were happy to see them, and would have gladly helped the Germans march on to Moscow, but the SS showed up and began their extermination programs. . .

13

Well, I think I’m back to Square One.

I figured the Russian Wikipedia article on the ANT-20 might have a little more info, and it did. I Babelfished it. And the last paragraph states that while a production line was intended, only the first ANT-20bis was produced.

Unfortunately, Babelfish refused to translate the source of this information, so I have to take that as the truth. My kingdom for a decent translator.
So… Anyone else have any ideas as to other six engined airplanes in eastern Europe during 1941? My resources are tapped and I’m frustrated.

14

I’ve read this in reliable books too. I just can’t remember which.

15

Hmmmm. That matches with this from aeronautics.ru. Shame. There’s other oddities like the Kalinin K-7, and the ANT-22 but these seem pretty unlikely too. You could try asking on the forums at www.airliners.net or some other hardcore planehead site - there are some very knowledgeable people there.

16

So I brought my grandfather over to the computer and showed him some things… I showed him around wikipedia. Let’s just say he was most impressed, if not amazed.

And, as I had hoped wouldn’t happen, he confirmed that it wasn’t an ANT-20. Still definitely 6 engines… But placed and spaced further out on the wings. Now I have less than no idea as to what it would be. I think it must be a confused memory, because I haven’t seen anything even close to that. Anywhere.

Slaphead, you were right on with the AVT-40. He instantly said that was it. Thanks a bunch, I wouldn’t have known where to start.

He also mentioned how much he admired that ppsh-41, for its reliability. He used a K98 that would jam with any little dirt. He liked how the russian ones could handle being dirty. It was the precision; the german things he used were all too well made, with too close of tolerences.

He didn’t dislike all his weapons though, he said he liked the P.08 he was issued. He figured he’s still be able to take it apart and put it back together, even after all these years. I don’t doubt him.

When we were looking through the list of Axis weapons, looking for the Panzerfaust - he says him and a couple others took out a “big” russian tank (I think a t-34) with them - he noticed the “FIS” (the name on Wikipedia is Vis, but he pronounces it with an “f”) He told me he found one of these in a building they spent the night in. He found a box with one of these, and a buch of ammo for it. He put it in his pocket and took it. It spent the war with him. He had it until the end of the war, always hidden, because they were not allowed to take souvenirs. He even had it with him when he was taken to a hospital near Berlin after being wounded in Breslau - they allowed the walking wounded to board the ammunition planes after they’d dropped off their cargo. The airplane apparently didn’t stop, and they wre under artillery fire the whole time. - At the end of the war, which for him was May 10, 1945, he buried this pistol in the bombed out ruins of a house in Berlin. That was the last he saw of it, though he says he still “dreams about it”. Not too sure what he means by that, but I guess he liked the gun.

17

St_Ides–did you show him the Me 323?

18

Glad I could help.

The Radom is usually written up as being a very good piece of kit. And I’m not surprised he dreams about it, if he spent a fairly noteworthy part of his life carrying it around with him - things like that become a sort of personal totem.

As for the ‘big’ tank, if he would be fairly familiar with soviet tanks he might have meant the KV-1 or similar, which was bigger than the T-34.

Seriously, you should record some of your chats with him - I’ve often kicked myself for not capturing a few of my granddad’s anecdotes about the war, as well as his escapades afterwards building nuclear power stations and cobbling together fake sattellite dishes out of scrap metal and silver paint to keep the men from the GPO happy…

19

I got sidetracked by the other things before I remembered the 323. I’ll show him it next time he’s over.

20

I might do that. I have an MP3 witha built in mic. I just need to figure out how to get it to record.