Yeah, I'm guilty. So what?

Got into a discussion at work today. Hoping any legal eagles on the SDMB can help.

We all know that you cannot be tried twice for the same crime. I had always thought that this meant you could not be tried twice with the * same evidence *.

So, say someone, we’ll call him… I don’t know… say “OJ” is cleared of a particularily brutal double murder. Can he be retried if the DA would find some convincing new eveidence? Like maybe a surveilance camera that clearly shows he is guilty.

Or, once cleared, could this “OJ” person say
" ha ha suckers, I did it all" and be totally in the clear?

OJ could produce a video tape, confess to the whole world, and wipe his butt with the American flag in front of Marcia Clark, and we couldn’t do a damn thing about it. One trial is all you get.

I remember a good episode of Picket Fences a while ago in which a woman was on trial for murdering her husband. She didn’t want to testify, because she wanted to be able to go on the talk show circuit and talk about how she got away with murder. Testifying on her own behalf could get her busted for perjury.

Nope, you can only be tried the one time, regardless of any new evidence that may come out.

If one criminal act violates both state and federal laws, then the suspect can be tried in both justice systems. This is what happened to some of Rodney King’s attackers. They were acquitted in state court but convicted in federal court. If O.J. admitts to murder, he could conceivable be subject to federal prosecution, if they could find an applicable statute. I don’t remember if the “Violence Against Women Act” was in force when the murders were committed.

To be specific, they have to be separate criminal acts and violations of different laws. I know this because I consulted for the 2nd Rodney King/LAPD 4 trial. The first trial was for “assault under color of authority” and the second trial was for violation of civil rights.

There’s a boring legal article about “dual sovereign” and double jeopardy in the Rodney King case at:

http://www.law.utah.edu/Cassell/jeopardy.htm

And BTW, if I hadn’t produced that computer enhanced version of the Rodney King video, the LAPD 4 would have gotten off AGAIN. It was the only evidence the jury asked for during deliberations, before convicting the bastards. But that is a long story…

Not strictly true. You can be tried any number of times. You just can’t be RE-tried on the same charges once an acquittal has occured. You can be retried due to a mistrial, or a new trial can be ordered after a conviction, due to new evidence or procedural error, etc.

True he can’t be tried for the same charges, even if new evidence exists, but, if new evidence exists, he can be tried for wrongful use of a weapon, trespassing, assault and battery, wrongful death(which he was my the family and I believe lost). And other misdemeanors, I would think. And I’m sure they would prosecute him to the fullest of the law on all charges. Another thing though, I don’t know if attempted murder was on his list of charges, but, if it wasn’t, can he be charged on attempted murder charges alone? If new evidence exist of course. Since murder and attempted murder are two different charges.

this all sounds rather ridiculous doesn’t it? if new evidence comes to light which can be used in acquitting someone who has been wrongfully jailed for murder, then surely the reverse of this should be true. it would be wrong for someone to get the law thrown at them for misdemeanors when they should be going down for murder, no?

Actually, no it doesn’t sound ridiculous. It was something that our FF felt very strongly about. The State has vast resources (multiple police forces etc) in order to investigate and prosecute crimes. They have the power to subpeana evidence, search private property etc. It would not be fair if the state had unlimited oppportunities to try you for the same crime after a NG verdict.

Keep in mind that the prosecutor has the abilty to not file charges at all if they don’t feel the case would result in a guilty verdict.

I believe lesser included offenses are included in the double jeopardy bar. Assault and battery, assault with a deadly weapon, and attempted murder would be lesser included offenses to murder, IIRC, so retrial on those issues would be barred. I think the weapons charge might be allowed.

Wrongful death is a civil action which may be pursued by the victim’s family, as was done in the O.J. case. Spouses of injured victims could also sue for “loss of consortium.” (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean? ;))

A little history lesson would help. In ye olde England, where this idea originated, the King, who during the 17th Century was often up to his neck in people who wanted him removed (and possibly even his head removed; Charles I, 1649), would at times make more than one attempt to get someone convicted of things like treason, crimes against the king, etc. So you go to a jury with evidence once, and the jury refuses to convict. So you find out why, then you go out and get someone to perjure themselves and say what the jury needed to hear, or trump up the evidence in some other way, and then you try the guy again, and viola! you have a conviction. Needless to say, that isn’t very fair.

The complete history of the double jeopardy rule (which is enshrined in the United States Constitution in the Fifth Amendment, “nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb”) can be found in most encyclopedias. To learn the ins and outs of how the rule works in America, as interpreted by the US Supreme Court, go here.

Does anyone know of a case in which a person was acquitted of a crime, and then said that they did it? (As in the “ha ha suckers, I did it all” context)

What happened to them? Anything?

I would think that there was a special case for someone who up and confesses after the trial. I understand not being able to try someone again as long as they maintain their innocence, and I think that’s fair. But if someone confesses, they should be dealt with accordingly, whether they were tried previously or not. Maybe our forefathers made a mistake/oversight (they were human) and it should be fixed/reworded.

The prohibition against being tried twice comes from the U.S. Constitution, Fifth Amendment, which provides in relevant part: “…nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb…”

This protection is now understood to protect against both a subsequent trial for the same offense following an acquittal, and multiple punishments for the same offense following a conviction.

It does not matter if new evidence comes to light – once an acquittal is reached, a videotape might emerge showing the accused committing the crime, and he can’t be retried.

However, the issue of what constitutes “the same offense.”

For example, if I waltz into a Falls Church convenience store with a gun, fire it into the ceiling to gain the attention of the proprieter, shove him behind the counter, demand the money from the register, take it, and leave, I’ve clearly committed the crime of armed robbery. But I’ve also brandished a firearm, discharged a firearm in the city limits, committed simple theft, and assaulted the shopkeeper.

If I’m tried and acquitted for the armed robbery crime, may I be tried again for the crime of assault? Of theft? Of the brandishing a firearm charge?

The answer is… it depends.

The seminal case for this determination is Blockburger v. U.S.. This case created the rule that where the same act or transaction constitutes a violation of more than one statutory provision, the test to be applied to determine whether there are two offenses or only one is whether each provision requires proof of an additional fact which the others do not.

Theft, then, is a “lesser-included” offense of armed robbery under these facts. In order to prove theft, the state would have to show that I stole something; in order to prove armed robbery, the state would have to show that I stole something while armed with a weapon. An acquittal of the armed robbery charge means an automatic acquittal of all lesser-included offenses; I cannot be retried for simple theft after such an acquittal.

On the other hand, discharging a firearm within the city limits is not an element of armed robbery. So theoretically, I could be retried for that crime, assuming I wasn’t charged with it at the first trial.

There might well be problems of proof at that second trial, though, as the state might be precluded from telling the jury the whole story of why I was in the store. That’s a discussion for another thread, but from a strict double-jeopardy standpoint, it’s possible.

Either side, by the way, may request that the jury be asked to consider a lesser-included offense, if the evidence supports it. So the prosecution might charge me with both theft and armed robbery - if the jury convicts on both, the two convictions merge into one. But they might choose to acquit on armed robbery and convict on theft. Sometimes juries do funny things – I’ve seen cases where they acquit on theft but convict on armed robbery, obviously not understanding their instructions. This usually means an appeal claim that the verdicts were legally or factually inconsistent.

Anyway, enough rambling.

  • Rick

c_goat -

**Does anyone know of a case in which a person was acquitted of a crime, and then said that they did it? (As in the “ha ha suckers, I did it all” context)

What happened to them? Anything?

I would think that there was a special case for someone who up and confesses after the trial. I understand not being able to try someone again as long as they maintain their innocence, and I think that’s fair. But if someone confesses, they should be dealt with accordingly, whether they were tried previously or not. Maybe our forefathers made a mistake/oversight (they were human) and it should be fixed/reworded**

Maybe Purjury? Only if they “testified” that they didn’t do it.

I can’t offhand think of a single case where someone was found not guilty of a crime and later made a public confession to it. In any case, though, there’s very good reasons for insisting that even in that case that a person can’t be retried for a crime. The state has much more power and influence than an individual. If they could retry a person because he had made a confession, they would have endless opportunities to keep sending someone back to court. All a prosecutor would have to do would be to find someone who was willing to say that he heard the defendant confess to him in a private conversation.

Similar things have happened in a single trial. There have been a number of cases where a person was convicted of murder because a cellmate (while the defendant was awaiting trial) said that the defendant confessed to him. After many years in jail (and sometimes while awaiting execution), the defendant was finally cleared because DNA showed that he couldn’t have done it or someone else confessed to the crime. It then turned out that the cellmate lied about the confession because he would get a lighter sentence for his own crime. Sometimes the prosecutor knew that the confession was a lie.

Trying to argue based on an analogy with the O.J. trial is very misleading. Remember, it’s rare for a rich person to be the person on trial. The vast majority of defendants are poor to working-class. If it were possible for prosecutors to keep people endlessly on trial by over and over claiming that they had newly confessed their crime, some prosecutors would do it. There are prosecutors with no scruples who wouldn’t care that a person had been found not guilty a dozen times for a crime. They would prosecute the defendant another time just out of spite. That’s what the double-jeopardy clause protects you from: the endless spite of the prosecutors.

This is the way it works in Sweden. The prosecution has the same rights to appeal as the defence. If new significant evidence is introduced, either side can file for an appeal to a higher court instance.

I heard about a case where a woman was murdered. There was strong circumstancial evidense against her boyfriend (IIRC). Even though there was no strong evidence, the DA took it to court and lost. A few years later, new owners replaced the carpet in the BF’s house and found a bunch of pictures he took during the crime. There was nothing anyone could do about it, since he had been acquitted.

One reason not to declare yourself guilty after acquittal is that the family could then bring civil suit against you and make you pay them for the rest of your life.

Last night on Dataline, there was a similar case. Young man disappears with $10K of a store’s money. Body is found a few days later by accident. Man caught watching the investigation turns out to be the young man’s manager. This man is now suspect #1. #1’s male lover comes to the police and says that #1 told him all about the murder. # 1 suspect is arrested. However, in front of the grand jury the lover recants his testimony. This screws the case so the DA does not prosecute. 175 days pass and because of Florida’s “speedy trial” law, the case is dropped and, because of double jeopardy, #1 is a free man.

I remember an episode of some detective TV show (Matlock, Perry Mason, or something) where a person was convicted of manslaughter and sent up for twenty-or-so years. The person does his time, then comes out of prison.

The problem is, the person did not actually commit the crime. After the prison sentence was served, authorities discovered that the dead person was not dead (he just wanted this other person out of the way for a while). Well, the person recently out of prison went ahead and murdered the guy, figuring the state owed him one. He wanted Matlock, Perry, or whoever to get him off since he already served time for murdering the guy he just killed.

I love the logic of that episode. Of course, would that be double-jeopardy?

I think either you, or Dateline, missed a step.

Jeopardy “attaches” to a case only when the jury in the trial is sworn in, or in a bench trial when the judge begins to hear evidence. In the sequence you describe above, jeopardy never attached.

Speedy trial rules are not the same as double jeopardy. The speedy trial concept ensures, statutorily, that a state may not continually hang an indictment over an accused’s head, and especially keep him in jail pending trial, without an end in sight. There are numerous exceptions; typically, a state may show “good cause,” for the delay and dodge the speedy trial requirements, just as an example.

These rules derive from each state’s laws. Double jeopardy derives from the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

  • Rick

Perhaps you missed the recent Tommie Lee Jones/Ashley Judd movie “Double Jeopardy”?

I believe that no, it would not constitute double jeopardy.

Say you’re charged with bank robbery. they say you robbed the first citizen’s bank on June 3, 1980. you do your time, get out, then get to rob the first citizen’s bank again since you’ve already been convicted of it???

The crime you’d have been convicted of would read “that you did unlawfully commit murder on or about such and such a day on the person of so and so”, etc. So, in essence, you’d be charged with a different crime.