Yes, Virginia, there is class struggle

[BrainGlutton]

@FinnAgain

Nor does it seem that it’s all that ‘incomprehensible’; the very first two Dopers to respond to you here sure seem to have gotten my point. But you did not.

:rolleyes:

I was just being nice.

The posts of yours to which I was referring as “incomprehensible” – and I thought I had made that as clear as possible without linking to each one – were this:

@BrainGlutton

Resulted from class struggle. That was a pretty clear case.

Wrong. Slaves rather obviously kept their social/econoimc class and lack of any political power and women did not have representation either. Calling it “class warfare” is simply ignorant.

And this:

@BrainGlutton

It was a class struggle between the eupatrids who monopolized political power before democracy was introduced and the unprivileged citizens who had it after.

No. Every conflict between those who have power and those who do not have power is not a “class struggle”. The facts that only certain citizens were included and that no slaves (the actual lowest class) were included shows that it wasn’t about class, it was about power. It was not a conflict between those who owned the means of production and those who worked, it was a conflict between those who held legislative and political power and only some of those who did not.

@BrainGlutton

And it did make a difference. If it did not, why did you even mention it on your list?

You seem to be responding to an argument that nobody has made.
The rise of Athenian democracy was, most certainly, a change.
What it was not is an example of “class warfare”.

And, though not it is not quite on-topic, and I certainly won’t be defending Olentzero’s Marxist position in that debate, this one also bears a look here:

@Olentzero

I love how you switch from ‘class struggle’ to ‘class warfare’ in the middle of your post. You’s a sneaky one, you is.

Shrugs.
Hard to keep nonsense terms straight sometimes I suppose.
But at least it’s not quite as bad as redefining “progress and social change” to “a radical restructuring of the socioeconomic and political structure of society”.

Nor is it quite as bad as redefining “class struggle/warfare/monkeyshines” into conflict between any two groups when they’re not totally equal. Unless they’re someone the Romans and Carthage, and then it just doesn’t count at all.

@Olentzero

They only seem to be moving because you’re running some crazy-ass patterns down the field.

No, they’re moving because you’re moving them. “Class Monkeyshines” can be actual conflict between classes, or any sort of conflict involving people who aren’t clones, and “progress” and “social change” can be actual progress like coming up with antibiotics to cure disease or social change like changes in society, or it can be “a radical restructuring of the socioeconomic and political structure of society”.

But they’re still the sole thing that causes progress or social change, whatever those are exactly.

@Olentzero

Class struggle does not automatically involve the lowest classes in society

So any sort of struggle becomes a “class” struggle, even if it has nothing to do with economics or class. A garbage man argues with a CEO over who saw a parking space first? Class Monkeyshines!

@Olentzero

Two classes out of several fighting for power - class struggle.

Again goalposts move and definitions get rewritten on the fly. Certain men are a class unto themselves, well, because they are. And women and slaves don’t get counted in that class because, if they did, then it wouldn’t be an example of Class Monkeyshines, which it is, after all.

@Olentzero

The monarchy had the power, the bourgeoisie was strong enough and organized enough to make a bid for power - class against class. Class struggle.

One group of people had power, they fought with other people who had more power that they were exercising over the first group, therefore it’s Class Monkeyshines. And now, conveniently, we’re back to some sort of standard “class” concept at least, rather than 'lower class folks, but not women or slaves, because they don’t count."

Of course, people would be hard pressed to find any conflict, at any point in history, where there wasn’t some sort of disparity between participants.

@Olentzero

Any struggle in which an oppressed section of the world’s population fights for its rights needs to involve ever wider sections of the working class, and thus such fights become part of the class struggle.

Ah, what luck. Now we’ll define the world in terms of only two classes, and if some people want to change anything in society and work in groups, then it’s Class Monkeyshines.

Now, FinnAgain, I have the honor of calling to your attention that “incomprehensible” is, well, the most kind and generous conceivable characterization of your statements above that is in any way rooted in truth. There are many characterizations far more appropriate and accurate, but I’m not entirely comfortable using them outside the Pit. Neither “intelligent” nor “honest” nor “argument” nor “a verbal expression of thoughts” is, or belongs, anywhere on that list.

Which is why I chose the word “incomprehensible” for reference in the OP. In hindsight, a most regrettable error on the side of courtesy.

Oh, and one more thing, and you really need to talk to your doctor about this: Use of the word “monkeyshines” is a possible indicator of advanced senility, regardless of your actual biological age.