Yet another about tinkering-with-voting in a work of fiction...

Following on from the threads re qualification for voting in fiction works (Heinlein’s Starship Troopers and For Us,The Living: here’s another, concerning another author. A novel which I read long ago: * In The Wet* by Nevil Shute – whose work I’ve mostly found embarrassingly beyond-trite; but this book struck me as one of his less awful ones, and contained an idea to do with the voting thing, which I thought interesting.

The novel is a sort of quasi-time-travel story, back-and-forth between Australia circa 1950, and Australia some hundred-years-or-a-bit-more, later. The 21st-century scenario features an Australia basically on the conservative side, but not fanatically / repressively so, and run as a parliamentary democracy.

The voting structure in 21st-century Australia, is as follows. All citizens (with “extreme” exceptions, as discussed in the Starship Troopers thread), basically have the franchise. However; all those who are eligible, have for each election, one “basic” vote. Additional votes, for each election, are granted to eligible voters who fall into various categories – a vote per each such category which applies to the person. In the novel (from memory – I don’t possess a copy) there are five such categories. (1) Having been through higher education and successfully graduated therefrom. (2) Having served in the armed forces (one takes it, without having disgracefully screwed-up such service). (3) Being a member in good standing of, and regular participant in, a religious congregation of one’s particular faith. (4) Being married; I forget whether this is further dependent on having, or intending to have, kids – one’s own, or adopted, according to circumstances. (5) I think – memory possibly at fault here – being genuinely involved in voluntary service intended in some way, to make the world better than it would otherwise be (if so, this would admittedly overlap somewhat, with the “religious congregation” category). Also: the so-called “seventh vote”: awardable by the powers-that-be – arbitrarily if you will – to individuals who have performed in special circumstances, specially meritorious acts.

I see the general idea here, as being to weigh voting capacity, in favour (on the whole) of the more intelligent / responsible / solid of the citizenry, who will be more likely to properly understand issues, and to vote wisely and with knowledge. Many possible objections can be envisaged, in various ways: for one, I see many Dopers being anti-the “religious congregation” qualification, and seeing it as desirable to remove that one, and give the extra vote to opponents of, and active combatters of, religious-type superstitious nonsense. And; the attributes seen as deserving extra votes, will differ according to the views of those making the rules concerning same – the above-listed being seen as desirable, by an essentially conservative polity: so, tending to reinforce and give power to essentially conservative views, and to strengthen the status quo. And, possibilities of people “gaming the system” and doing the nominal bare minimum to qualify for some of the categories listed – just to get the vote, without genuinely supporting the goals concerned. This kind of stuff is of course unavoidable in pretty well any democratic system; and those who engage in it, at least display the positive qualities of industry and ingenuity.

With the other two recent threads mentioned, I just thought this might be of some interest; or if I’m an idiot and it’s of zero interest to anyone – no worries !

Ive read this a long time ago but I seem to remember a vote for foreign travel.

Definitely of interest! Also, because of Arrow’s Theorem, always vaguely depressing, since we can never really have everything we want from a any decision-making system. Still, we can try to minimize certain really ugly parts.

(I wrote a novel – unpublished and possibly unpublishable – where the government was for sale. Right up front and open. Every year, the Parliament issued certificates good for seats and membership. Anyone who wanted one could bid money for it. The richest entities – corporations and individual billionaires – got to vote for or against laws. The principle is that rich people generally favor stability.)

Ah, thanks. I now think I’m remembering foreign travel as one of the qualifiers – suspect that I had imagined “do-gooding”, instead. Of course, the former could be seen as liable to overlap with military service; and the latter, with religious-congregation-membership.

One wonders how sound foreign travel may actually be, as an indicator of one’s being a valuable and alert citizen of one’s own country: some kinds of foreign travel which people do (and not just the sort which is in the armed forces in a shooting war) can be almost totally non-instructive – or worse; with Australia being the country concerned, one can’t help but think (re geographical proximity) of horny guys visiting Indonesia or Thailand, object of trip being sexual gratification. But Shute was not – to put it politely – one of the most profound thinkers in the business.

The above sounds a great idea – both for running countries, and as the premise of a novel. Your work sounds as though it much deserves publishing ! Does the Net maybe offer possibilities in the “self-publishing” line? (I’m not au fait with such things – just curious.)

The issue I have with weighting votes as described is that one purpose of voting is to make sure that disenfranchised people have a say. Since the disenfranchised are the least likely to have money, education, influence, etc. this system reduces their power. With marriage and religion in there, you’ve also disenfranchised those practicing alternative lifestyles, however that’s defined by the society.

I know we all like to lament the idea of the poor voting bread and circuses for themselves, but I think it really is a feature of democracy that if you have enough poor people, they can make that happen. Thus, there is an incentive for everyone to come up with some kind of consensus solution which may not eliminate the ills of society but will at least mitigate them enough to keep the disenfranchised a small enough minority that they can’t dominate in elections.

Comparing this to Starship Troopers: at least Federal Service is something that’s open to everyone who wants to make the sacrifice. Voting is not just a perk of wealth and lifestyle.

You’re very kind…and I am exploring Amazon Kindle self-publishing. (Applause to Amazon: their publishing interface is one of the most user-friendly, easily negotiated web interfaces ever. They make it EASY!)

Sounds a lot like Twain’s story The Curious Republic of Gondour The Curious Republic of Gondour and Other Whimsical Sketches, by Mark Twain where votes are allocated like this:

"
The victory was complete. The new law was framed and passed. Under it every citizen, howsoever poor or ignorant, possessed one vote, so universal suffrage still reigned; but if a man possessed a good common-school education and no money, he had two votes; a high-school education gave him four; if he had property likewise, to the value of three thousand ‘sacos,’ he wielded one more vote; for every fifty thousand ‘sacos’ a man added to his property, he was entitled to another vote; a university education entitled a man to nine votes, even though he owned no property. Therefore, learning being more prevalent and more easily acquired than riches, educated men became a wholesome check upon wealthy men, since they could outvote them. Learning goes usually with uprightness, broad views, and humanity; so the learned voters, possessing the balance of power, became the vigilant and efficient protectors of the great lower rank of society.
And now a curious thing developed itself—a sort of emulation, whose object was voting power! Whereas formerly a man was honored only according to the amount of money he possessed, his grandeur was measured now by the number of votes he wielded. A man with only one vote was conspicuously respectful to his neighbor who possessed three. And if he was a man above the common-place, he was as conspicuously energetic in his determination to acquire three for himself. This spirit of emulation invaded all ranks. Votes based upon capital were commonly called “mortal” votes, because they could be lost; those based upon learning were called “immortal,” because they were permanent, and because of their customarily imperishable character they were naturally more valued than the other sort. I say “customarily” for the reason that these votes were not absolutely imperishable, since insanity could suspend them."

Ah, lame old Nevil – couldn’t even come up with something that hadn’t been thought of before…

The concern would be that they would favor stability too much.

Year 1: The votes have been auctioned off and the millionaires have assumed office.

First order of business: A motion to make the legislature a lifelong and hereditary body. All in favor, vote aye.

Okay, maybe it wouldn’t be that obvious. But a system like you’ve described puts too direct a link between wealth and power. The people at the top would have both and would use their wealth to maintain their power and their power to maintain their wealth.

I haven’t read any Neville Shute for a long time, and don’t remember In the Wet at all, but I think you are being a bit hard on him. Maybe not Great Literature, but I really enjoyed On the Beach and A Town Like Alice.

Alas, you’re quite right. The system may have stability, but it doesn’t have “meta-stability.” As you observe, once the “stability” faction has a majority, they’ll use that power to tilt the table further their way. The idea lacks the “self-opposition” that Parliamentary systems have built in to the Opposition, and that the U.S. Constitution has in the “powers divided in opposition to each other.”

It’s hard to devise a system with negative feedback like that! Most systems work on the principle of “The more power you got, the more power you get.” This usually climaxes with the arrest of the opposition.

I will never forget the shudders I felt watching Boris Yeltsin’s tanks firing rounds into the Russian Parliament building. I want a system where that isn’t going to happen!

Actually, in the US…

The wealthy are less likely to do military service than other classes.

And, though I don’t have a cite, it wouldn’t surprise me if the wealthy are less likely to be regularly attending religious services.

Now, that’s under our current non-vote rewarding system. But one of those, maybe two, favor the lower classes.

Then take somewhere like California where community college is free and again it’s not a qualification that favors the wealthy.

The Year King system gets you that. If you get an asshole, no worries, you’ll be sacrificing him and sprinkling his blood on the fields to raise the corn in a year’s time, so it’s all good :slight_smile:

That’s true, so it might not be such an issue, though I am thinking of disenfranchised to mean more than just financially. For example, a minority that is disproportionately jailed for crimes would probably have fewer able to complete education or military service. Homosexuals could be barred from marriage and military service and might not be allowed in qualifying church congregations.

Of course, some of these equalizing factors could be gamed by the wealthy. The younger President Bush hardly had the same military service record his father did. And church attendance could be a great social and networking event that you do just enough of to get your extra votes.

Anyway, I should also point out that disenfranchising certain groups could be the whole point of the system and desirable by the populace in a fictional world. There’s a reason the ancient Greeks limited voting to male landowners. That system certainly “worked” for certain definitions of the term, though most of us would see it as less than ideal.

But you have to wonder if the Year King is going to be committed to the long-term interests of his kingdom.

“What are your orders, Your Majesty?”
“Gather everyone together. We’re invading the Empire of Doom.”
“The Empire of Doom? But they have twenty times the soldiers we have. Surely, we have no chance of defeating them.”
“No chance at all. We’re all going to die. Gee, how does it feel, knowing somebody’s going to kill you?”

As I recently pointed out, currently in the United States 1 in 3 people who live here cannot vote here ---- such are our franchise requirements. Mostly people don’t have a problem with that.

Is part of that the age limit? People under 18 can’t vote? Most people are pretty comfortable with that.

Plural voting was a real actual thing that happened. In the UK among others.

I’ll admit to being nastier about Shute than he probably deserves. It’s just that, largely, what I’ve read of his work annoys the heck out of me. So very often in his novels: situations, and his reflections on them, and dealings between the characters, seem to me hackneyed beyond all description. The novels vary IMO: I found On The Beach impressively grim and frightening, and liked In The Wet and Requiem for a Wren. On the other hand, A Town Like Alice struck me as a load of embarrassing pap. Tastes differ, and all that !

That’s the largest percentage.

Though, really, I’ve wondered what would happen if we pulled age restrictions. It may not make much difference. I don’t think that large numbers of children would want to vote. And I’m not sure I think they’d do a worse job than the current electorate is doing.

I expect one issue would be parents who’d fill out their children’s ballots for mail-in ballots.