I would have put this in MPSIMS but the moderators there don’t like me bashing the catholic church even when it’s totally on topic, so I have put it here. I only just became aware of it myself but it happened a few months ago.
Basically, a nice (and heroic) man, notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article, called Sanal Edamaruku who is an established Indian skeptic noted that a miraculous weeping cross was caused by a leaking drain. So far, so normal for a catholic miracle. However, what is fairly unusual about this case is that the catholic church has filed complaints with various Indian police stations that he was insulting their faith by confronting it with reality. Long story short (and I don’t see any reason to get into much detail cause everyone here is capable of using google),** he’s had to move to Finland to avoid prison**. And Finland is a cold place with lots of drunk dudes, so it’s not an ideal place for an Indian skeptic with this guy’s track record.
Even if this is just local zealots - I challenge any catholic apologist here to explain to me why the catholic church, led by Rome, shouldn’t crack down upon their local chapters here and get the complaints withdrawn. JUSTIFY THE LACK OF ACTION. After all the church has shown many times it can be led from the centre when it suits it.
This is why we should never, ever, ever give these evil religious organisations a hint of extra power. We should be focussed upon removing power from them every single step of the way and never going back on it.** Stop consulting “faith organisations” or looking for the “faith perspective” (a phrase I saw today in a UK paper, coming from a UK government minister). **
The two worst organisations at the moment, because of their global reach and power (and not particularly because of their doctrines) are the catholic church and the type of whabbism sponsored by Saudi Arabia(ns).
Ah yes, I recall this. The Catholic Church appears to love using anti-blasphemy laws to shut up people in nations that have them, like India. And IIRC the water was contaminated, a health hazard; but the Church didn’t care, the lives and health of their believers are secondary concerns for them at best.
Well, if the OP wants to put forth the idea that there a few rotten apples in the Catholic Laity, you can take that up with him. Do you honestly believe that that his OP was crafted in that manner? Remember, it’s a sin to lie!
Exiled from India to Finland, eh? Food’s probably worse, but I bet the cell phone reception is better. More 6-foot blonde chicks, less excrement in the streets. Pros and cons, is what I’m getting at.
Are you crazy? Have you ever had to listen to anyone speak Finnish for more than a few minutes? Talk about your fingernails on the chalkboard! I was stuck with two elderly Finnish ladies once in a taxi from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. True story!!
The Slate interview has no other proof that what the guy says.
Art 295 appears to be similar to well-loved-by-liberals hate crime.
The community of believers IS the church, but when the OP mentions “Catholic Church” 100% of the readers understand it to be the administrative structure (Pope, bishops) and not the mystical body.
Without more information, I cannot get outraged too much.
Sounds just like a hate crime. Well, not completely. Make that nothing like a hate crime.
Let’s compare:
Hate crime:
Chaining someone by the ankles to your pickup truck and dragging them along until their head is severed, simply because they happen to have a different skin color than you.
Not a hate crime:
Saying “Let me demonstrate that that weeping cross is the result of a leak.”
It’s weak for the hierarchy to preach over and over again about the unted nature of their theology but to disavow the actions of those who take the theology to heart. If they’re not going to stand by catholics who make accusations of heresy or blasphemy, then they should really revamp exactly what their position on blasphemy and miracles are.
Who says they disavowed the actions of that group? AFAWK, they’ve said nothing on the subject. And this isn’t about “blasphemy”. It’s a peculiar law in India. We don’t even know if the accusations are true. We only have this guy’s word for it.
Yeah, but just between us girls— if it turned out to be 100% true and masterminded by the Pope himself, you still wouldn’t be outraged too much, would you?
So the only place where a guy from India (not noted as a Christian, let alone Catholic, nation) can find sanctuary from persecution by Catholics is Finland?:dubious:
The hierarchy do not seem to have been involved with this event in any way.
I cannot find a single reference to the local bishop giving any credence to the “miracle.” Sanal has made a claim that “church officials” were promoting the “miracle,” but has not identified them. It appears that the local priest got into a televised argument with Sanal over the subject, but I am not sure why you expect the hierarchy to support a priest making wild claims about a miracle when they have not given any support to the claims, either.
I don’t know how local church politics runs in India, but in most of the world, if the priest was actively promoting the notion of the “miracle,” he would probably be getting his knuckles rapped by his bishop for being a twit.
Oh come on. The church (or at least the current pope) supports the turin shroud and various serious parts of its hierarchy of it support the ketchup blood thing in Naples. There is MASSIVE support for mother theresa who was basically a sadist, and just look at the support for the nun who I had never heard of a week or two ago mentioned on this board who jumped out of a window to stop being raped and then stopped eating (yeah right) - all the time SUFFERING for god.
The latter two examples by the way are one of the ways catholic church is most evil - it fetishises suffering. That’s fairly unusal for a religion. Does anyone want to deny that emphasising suffering increases suffering?
I just had to Google for the Rationalwiki and other humanist sites, following the links one can see that the case is being discussed in India and as the interview here shows, it is clear that what Sanal Edamaruku reported on the accusations filed and his prosecution are true, there is an attempt by the high church authorities to wash their hands (pun intended) by claiming that the higher ups were not involved, that the blame falls just on some zealots; unfortunately, the local cardinal was accused by the leader of the zealots that filed the complaint that he got the support from the higher ups, and then the cardinal claimed that everything would go away if only Sanal would apologize, If it is that easy, why not tell the zealots to drop this silliness? As the report from CNN IBN shows, many legal experts in India itself note that this is an abuse of the law.
Please. The foundation of the church is built on the idea of miracles. It is only the fact that the rest of the world isn’t comprised of ignorant peasants that they don’t trumpet every water damaged wall and piece of toast as a miracle. Toto shows us the man behind the curtain and the church doesn’t even have the balls to admit that they foster the attitudes that lead to foolishness and superstition.
