Yet Another Language Question

[pianodave]

@The_Stafford_Cripps

And “agreement” can cover a few different things - when I was learning French the word was almost invariably used to mean adjectives, not articles. This is why I was suggesting that the question might be more specific than the responders in this thread have realised. I might be wrong, but unless you’ve been in private communication with them, only the OP can confirm one way or the other.

Great responses, thank you to all.

Yes, Stafford, my question covers both articles and adjectives. I’m interested in the reaction to any mistakes that a non-native speaker would make–being made by a native speaker. When I speak with others in Hebrew and Spanish and make an agreement mistake of any kind, I get corrected. They assume (quite rightly) that I want to learn the right way to say things.

But if I made mistakes in English, I would not want to be corrected. I would think it rude–because I know the language. There’s a difference between knowing the language and simply misspeaking versus obviously not knowing it. I guess much depends as well on context, relationship to the person, etc. Maybe it’s similar to how I’d react if someone wanted to “axe” me a question.

[John_Mace]

@chappachula

English has a similar problem. Try this exercise:

1. Say out loud “mint, hint, tint, lint”.
2. Now say “pint”.
   For a native, “you just know how to say it”. For a foreign speaker, it ain’t so easy-peasy.

Right!

[Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil]

French native speaker.

@pianodave

1. Do native speakers of these languages (and others with similar grammatical rules) ever mess up masculine/feminine agreement?

Extremely rarely. It only happens if I’m extremely tired, nervous or angry.

2. If not, would it be a similar parallel to asking native English speakers if they ever make mistakes like “I is happy” or “They was sad,” which really doesn’t happen often at all?

Yes, pretty much.

However, there are some cases of words that can be used with le or la but they mean different things so in spite of the fact that they look exactly alike, they are for all practical purposes different words. Getting them confused is rare except for really specialized ones.

3. How serious are errors like these taken if you are trying to converse with a native speaker? Do mistakes of this fashion imply poor education? If a native speaker himself/herself made an agreement mistake in a group of native speaking friends, how would they react?

If they are frequent and the speaker is in a normal emotional/physical state, they’d be considered as clear signs of very poor education. It’s as basic as it gets.

Mistakes made by foreigners are not a big deal however as they are kind of expected and usually don’t lead to misunderstandings.

[Nava]

@jovan

Of course, it wouldn’t be French without some rules that make no sense whatsoever. Why in heaven isn’t “mausolée” feminine, despite the very feminine silent “e”?

Because it comes from mausoleum, of course. The question would rather be when did it grow that e.

[Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil]

@jovan

“Amour” is masculine, no native speaker would get this wrong, and yet… “nos amours mortes” is perfectly correct.

It is correct but it sounds very affected to me, the kind of thing you’d find in a song or poem. I don’t think anyone would say that in an everyday conversation.

As far as confusing masculine and feminine nouns, my nemesis is “aphte” (canker sore) which I refuse to accept as masculine. My wife and my dictionnary tell me that I’m wrong, though.

For words that can be used with le or la:

*Le voile / la voile *(the veil / the sail): Elle porte le voile (she wears the veil) / Elle porte la voile (she carries the sail).

Le mousse / la mousse (the cabin boy / the foam): Tu aimes le mousse (you love the cabin boy) / Tu aimes la mousse (you like foam).

Le tour / la tour (the walk / the tower): Je fais un tour (I’m going for a walk) / Je fais une tour (I make a tower).

Le moule / la moule (the mould / the mussel): Il y a du sable dans ce moule (there is sand in this mould) / Il y a du sable dans cette moule (there is sand in this mussel).

[chiquitita]

@jovan

To add to what has been said, in French, yes. However, native speakers do not make the same sort of mistakes non-native speakers do. Here are two lists, compiled by the government of Quebec:
Masculine nouns that are often mistakenly used in the feminine.
Feminine nouns that a are often mistakenly used in the masculine.

One of the things is that these lists are specific to Quebec. Some of the words in there are sometimes used in the wrong gender by some people there, but I have a hard time imagining a European speaker making the same mistake. So, dialect plays a role. (That said, there are a few words in those lists that are iffy. I’ve never, ever heard anybody mistakenly use “escalier” or “été” in the feminine, for instance.)

On top of that, some of these words are not common at all: I can’t imagine anybody using “ergastule” on a regular basis, except for a teacher of Latin or an expert on Ancient Rome. I’ve never encountered the words “épilobe”, “glomérule”, “ophicléide” or “scorsonère”, I have no idea of what they refer to and I couldn’t begin to guess their grammatical gender either. They sound like specialist vocabulary to me and I suppose that most French native speakers wouldn’t be thrown by the incorrect use of gender, but rather by the unusual word itself.

@Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil

As far as confusing masculine and feminine nouns, my nemesis is “aphte” (canker sore) which I refuse to accept as masculine. My wife and my dictionnary tell me that I’m wrong, though.

Mine is “haltère” (dumbbell), which I consistently use in the feminine.

@pianodave

But if I made mistakes in English, I would not want to be corrected. I would think it rude–because I know the language. There’s a difference between knowing the language and simply misspeaking versus obviously not knowing it. I guess much depends as well on context, relationship to the person, etc.

I wouldn’t mind being corrected myself, by anybody, but, yeah, I wouldn’t correct an adult native speaker unless it’s someone I know. It would be rude.
But if someone makes glaring and repeated mistakes concerning grammatical gender in common words, I would suspect a lack of education, or a learning disability, or even, in an extreme case, some kind of mental deficiency.