I’ll have to disagree that the guy is the only party whose actions begged change. I think that the guy could indeed have simply gone along with the nonsense. As I’ve said before, resisting cops is foolish. But given the native human ability to judge stupidity, I think there were many opportunities for the authorities to have taken other actions that would have resulted in a different outcome.
Starting with the EMTs who heard his comment, I would think it perfectly reasonable for them to put on a grin and ask “You’re kidding, right? You’re not really gonna off yourself over a leg bruise (whatever injury) are you?” His reply would have either alleviated their concern (grin in return - “Nah, I was just feeling sorry for myself.”) or confirmed it (“Hell yeah, what do you care anyway?”).
Similarly, the cops could have elicited a discussion with the guy and his wife after he was back on his couch. Same as above, giving him the opportunity to retract his supposed threat. He did in fact state that “It was a joke” but by then the cops had already declared their intention to take him into custody. Had they begun their interaction with him in a different manner, without concluding in advance that there was a credible threat of bodily harm, they could have investigated instead of demanding to take him into custody. They might also have involved his wife in the dialog, perhaps asking if she knew of a history of suicide threats. And they might have enlisted her cooperation, telling her that she would have to be responsible for her husband’s actions if she was going to vouch for him. The reactions of the couple to this different scenario might again have either confirmed or alleviated the stated concern for his welfare.
Upthread it was stated that situations like this allow the responders zero leeway, and prohibit judgment calls. If indeed the relevant laws and departmental guidelines are such, I think it is appropriate to call them into question. I have a problem with laws that prohibit all judgment from people who might be experienced and trained to exercise judgment. I would rather my EMTs and police officers be given sufficient training to draw a line between “credible threat” and “threat by form only”. Even if they mostly prefer to exercise caution and to err on the side of protection, I’d find that preferable to a “we have neither choice nor judgment” system. Obviously YMMV.
I’ve watched it repeatedly and I still see no real threat to a pair of officers from an older man who needs the assistance of both arms to lift himself up off his couch. He didn’t have time to put those same arms behind himself before he was tased. That to me was a bad move. The officer should have allowed another half second to see if the guy was actually “lunging” or simply moving to comply in a grudging manner. It would have taken at least that long for the guy to cross the intervening space, and the cop could have tased him right up to the theoretical point of contact. I just cannot convince myself that the guy was actually attacking the officer. Really. But again, YMMV.
Here’s the thing about that. I’ve worked a suicide hotline, I’ve worked with suicidal patients, and real honest to god suicidal people will often recant, say they were just joking, etc when they realize that they now have to go to a hospital etc.
That’s the thing. Police and EMT’s are not psychologist/psychiatrists. They ARENT trained or experianced in making that kind of diagnosis. The move to take that out of the judgement call was made because it has been a real problem in the past. In this area, and in domestic violence especially. Having them bring the person to a proffesional is the best option.
I don’t know if the guy was going to attack to the officer or not. Neither did the officer. The guy saying fuck you right before tends would imply that he was not going to comply. But after having been in those situations a few dozen times you get a feel for it, and you err on the side of caution. I would probably would have tased him.
Your experience trumps mine-- I work with animals, not so much people. Some of mine will kill a person, and some of mine might kill themselves, but it certainly isn’t the same thing. But I don’t think we are really so much in disagreement as we are seeing this from different perspectives.
You see it as one isolated case of “He probably wasn’t suicidal, but the system still functions best for the vast majority of people. It’s just part and parcel of the real world circumstances in which we work.” (I hope I am not unfairly distorting your position.)
I see it as a case of somebody who wasn’t suicidal at all, and was put through considerable suffering for zero benefit just because he fit a pro forma profile. And I would rather require my police and my EMTs to take additional training and even if necessary receive clinical experience so that they could be more effective in interpreting the actions and statements of all the people with whom they professionally interact. It’s sort of like the classic “better a thousand guilty men go free than a single innocent man be punished”. Maybe this is the only case that would unfold differently. Maybe there would be some others. But that would be enough to justify the change to me.
And here again, we differ in perspective, not in our desire to safeguard the policeman. You identify with the officer, and want to err on his side. I identify with the “old” guy (it’s only a few years before I reach his age!) and believe that I myself would be well and truly pissed in this circumstance, and I might cuss and bitch, but I wouldn’t actually go so far as to attack two cops.
No, that’s reasonably accurate. I doubt he was really sucidal, but you never know.
In perfect world I might agree with you. But unfortunately, the things that make a good therapist don’t make a good cop or EMT…not to mention the cost involved. I don’t think it would be effective.
Well, I do identify with both sides in this, but I want to err on the side of safety. I think it very likely that if the old guy did attack the cop, the ensuing physical confrontation would likely result in a greater injury to the old guy. anyway, just my opinion.
I did not see the guy as attacking the cops.
Over 400 people have died from tasering. He is old and probably more vulnerable to getting killed by a taser than most demographics.
In order to go along with the cops, he had to stand up. that is what he did. I did not see some old guy going after the cops. He was annoyed because the cops entered his home and said they were taking him for psychiatric evaluation. I see why he was pissed. A lot of trouble was coming his way for reasons he did not see as fair.
It was going to cost him money and trouble. He was going to be labelled as a psychiatric case . His life was about to change, and he felt he was being wronged.
Well, I disagree, obviously, the way he came off the couch towards the officer and the fuck you right before most cops and psych techs would consider a hostile move and would act. But you of course are entitled to your opinion.
Being taken in for evaluation doesn’t label you as anything, nor does it change your life…unless you were in fact suicidal then it just might save it. Other than that, confidentiality laws pretty mean that without a court order, no one would every know. More thank likely they wouldn’t keep him long. County hospitals don’t have psych beds to waste on people who aren’t dangerous.
In what other direction could he come off the couch? How close was the officer that he had to use his Taser on someone standing still and may be in the act of complying? Two feet? Ten feet? He never “heads towards the officer.”
You have to allow others the right to that information for plenty of reasons, e.g., getting new insurance, applying for certain jobs, etc.
You have no clue how things work in hospitals. “Busy” does not mean your wait will be shorter, it means the opposite and it will take longer before someone can determine that one isn’t dangerous. He will be waiting in the ED on a stretcher, possibly handcuffed to it, for a nice long wait for one of the ED docs to finally see him. Then if he’s lucky the wait won’t be as long for a psychiatrist to come down and evaluate him, but there’s a good chance the wait will be as long or longer. As far as the cop saying to him everything will be free of charge, he’s wrong. He’ll be getting a bill. Being taken to the hospital against your will doesn’t mean you’re off the hook for charges.
How does an “evaluation” work, anyway? Do they just basically interview someone and ask if they’re suicidal? If a person doesn’t want to be committed, won’t they just lie?
Well, I disagree. He could have said “ok, I’ll go but this is wrong” and and got up and put his hands behind him. but he didn’t.
Not for insurance, (and it wouldn’t matter for insurance unless they decidedhe WAS suicidal, for some government jobs, maybe.
I have no clue? I worked in a psych hospital as a psych tech. I know exactly how things work, it was often my job to sit with the patient while we waited for the eval. And no, you dont put a psych patient on a stretcher etc. Usually it was in a quiet room.
And if you’re not admitted, there isn’t going to be a bill.
Sometimes. If someone is upset enough to be suicidal they generally aren’t in control of the emotions…and shrinks are pretty good about getting them to talk about what’s going through their head. Bt it’s not perfect, just better than just guessing. If someone is brought in that fought with the police (at least where I worked) they would go straight into a seclusion room until they calmed down and we could evaluate them. The doctor didn’t spend any real time with them until the next day. So if you’re in that situation, compliance will usually get you out faster.
What part of what I said do you disagree with? Telling me what else he could have done tells me nothing about why you disagree with me. I asked you two questions and then made the statement that he never “heads towards the officer.” You think he headed towards the officer?
How do you know why it would matter for insurance if you’re stating it’s not done for insurance? Your medical records are available for insurance companies when attempting to get both health and life insurance.
Then you should know that not having beds doesn’t mean faster service. In an ED he most likely wouldn’t be in the quiet room unless he was being overly uncooperative. The wait could be very long.
Maybe that was the case for the psych hospital you worked in; it’s not the case for a hospital ED where I bet McFarland was taken to. Who do you think takes care of the bill in these situations? Doctors don’t work for free and hospitals don’t pick up the tab because an eval meant one could go home.
Your psych records to do not magically get put in a file with your local doctor. Unless you file an insurance claim, or vounteer the information that you were in a hospital for psych no one is going to find out without a court order. confidentially laws are really scrict in psych.
No, I know the opposite. not having beds in a psych ward means that the nurses and techs are over worked. admitting is not. Not in any of the places I worked or was involved in.
Maybe that was the case for the psych hospital you worked in; it’s not the case for a hospital ED where I bet McFarland was taken to. Who do you think takes care of the bill in these situations? Doctors don’t work for free and hospitals don’t pick up the tab because an eval meant one could go home.
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That is the case for all the psych hospitals I have worked for, or been involved in. If the patient is admitted, there could be a bill, but good luck collecting on it if the patient didn’t agree to be there. one of the reasons county psych hospitals have so few beds.
I won’t bother arguing with you about this. The video is linked to in this thread for anyone that is interested in seeing if your claim is correct or not.
Why do you think that’s relevant? Did I say otherwise?
Or if you are trying to get medical or life insurance, which is what I said.
You’re saying not having beds means faster service? Whatever. I won’t bother arguing with you over that but those who have had to wait in hospitals for service and are reading this thread will know that claim is absurd.
There “could be one” if the patient is admitted? Of course there is one! There’s also one just for being evaluated from the ED doc and the psychiatrist. They don’t work for free and they don’t give a damn if you were brought in against your will. Whatever luck they have on collecting it is irrelevant.
And you’re wrong. It isn’t magic, the insurance company has to know you were given a psych eval. They have to know to request those records, and where to request them from. If you do not vounteer that information, they will never know about it.
2nd, they will not even ask if you were ever evaluated. Only if you were treated.
I’m saying in psych, the two are not that related. You are confusing med with psych. An ER gets a ton of injuries in a night. A psych unit, not very many. But they dont have very many beds, because inpatient psych services are generally only for pretty severe cases.
No, they dont work for free. They are payed by the hospital. “they dont give a damn if you were brought in against your will”. You’ll need a cite for that, because that’s not how it works in the psych hospitals I have real world experience in. I’ve seen patients brought in for eval, and no held. They weren’t given a bill. Honestly, I don’t know about how billing works if you are brought in against your will for a longer eval…where you actually are admitted. That wasn’t my department.
What luck they have collecting is very relevant. I could send you a bill right now for sharing my experiences with you, but I doubt I could make you pay it.
I’m not talking about magic. Insurance companies can find out through SSNs and prior insurance claims, which is something you’re going to do regardless of your claim that one won’t be billed. Not “volunteering” that info when asked is lying and not a good idea if you don’t want to risk being refused insurance or a future claim.
Not in a lot of hospitals these days. I’ve worked in several where the ER docs have their own group and bill on their own.
But your cite is your experience? Mine too. He most likely would have gone to a regular hospital and not a psych hospital. He would have gone to the ED and neither the docs nor the hospital would have given him a free ride because they treated him when he didn’t want to be.
It’s not relevant. We’re discussing whether or not a patient gets billed, not whether or not anyone is successful in getting any funds.
I think people can make up their own minds on that one.
You’re wrong. state law here (and most states), keep psych records sealed. There is no mechanism for an insurance company to seach the files of all the diferent hospitals.
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Not in a lot of hospitals these days. I’ve worked in several where the ER docs have their own group and bill on their own.
But your cite is your experience? Mine too. He most likely would have gone to a regular hospital and not a psych hospital. He would have gone to the ED and neither the docs nor the hospital would have given him a free ride because they treated him when he didn’t want to be.
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Have you ever worked psych? County hospitals here send psych patients to the psych floor, if they don’t take them to a dedicated psych hospital. They don’t just drop them off in the ER. I’m not saying their aren’t hospitals that do that. But having worked in several different facilities, and with a lot of different techs, doctors and nurses, I’ve never heard of them doing it. It wouldn’t make sense. You want to calm someone down when you bring them in.
You may be discussing that. I’m saying that an non-enforceable bill doesn’t matter anyway, but I doubt any place is going to bill you for an eval when brought in by the police, and the hospitals I worked at did not. Then again, they may have bill the police, That wouldnt’ have been something I was privy to.
I’ve worked in several inner city hospitals. Psych patients aren’t taken straight to the psych floor. They’re taken straight to the ER. ER docs can calm down psych patients too.
No, WE were discussing that; then you attempted to move the goal post and pretend that luck collecting on a bill was an issue. No, they don’t bill the police. :rolleyes: They bill patients and their insurance company if they have insurance. And there will be a record of that claim.
