You can't make up history like this

Based on a Straight Dope recommendation I am reading Simon Schama’s History of Britain trilogy. I am halfway through Part I (from the Stone Age through 1603), right around the time of the death of Edward I, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, coronation of Edward II, etc. I had no idea that English history was so fascinating, convoluted, and familial.

I mean, naturally kingships run in families. But I had no idea of the levels of family betrayal. It reads like a soap opera with swords. You could totally do a modern version of the life of Edward the Confessor as a daytime schlock romance.

As I understand it:

Ethelred II (the Unready) passed along the kingship to Edmund Ironside, his second son by his first wife, during a time when Danish incursions were threatening to swallow England. After Ethelred’s death, Edmund fought the Danes fiercely but was overwhelmed; a deal was struck dividing the kingdom with Canute (king of Norway and Denmark), agreeing upon the death of either to cede their lands to the other.

Conveniently, Edmund dies, and Canute takes over the whole kingdom (such as it was in those days). To validate his claim to the throne he marries Ethelred’s second wife, Emma of Normandy (daughter of the Duke of same), and has a son, Harthacanute. Ethelred’s sons (Harthacanute’s half-brothers) Edward and Alfred disappear off to Normandy.

Harthacanute is the rightful heir upon Canute’s death but he must dash off to Denmark to defend it against invasion by Norway, so his half-brother (Canute’s son from his own first wife, Harold Harefoot, is installed as Regent while Harthacanute goes off to war.

Insecure on the throne as regent, Harold Harefoot conspires with Godwin, Earl of Wessex, to have any contenders to the throne put to death, including his half-brother’s half-brother, Alfred son of Ethelred, lately returned from Normandy with his brother Edward to unseat him.

On Harold Harefoot’s death, Harthacanute returns for the throne of England, and though his half-brother Harold had his other half-brother Alfred killed, he designates his other other half-brother Edward as his successor.

Edward (the Confessor) ascends to the throne. Godwin, who conspired to murder Edward’s brother, now marries off his daughter Edith to Edward, presumably so that he could weasel his family into the royal line. However, Edward and Edith have no children and no clear heir.

Upon Edward’s death the succession is up in the air. Harold Godwinson takes the throne but he isn’t the only one who wants a share; the Duke of Normandy (William, Emma’s grand-nephew) thinks he deserves a slice; and Harald Hardrada of Norway thinks he’s owed a piece of England. Harald H. conspires with Harold G’s brother Tostig to invade, by sheer coincidence right before William invades from the opposite direction.

If you made a soap opera called “The Norman Conquest” it could hardly be better than actual history.

Anybody else fascinated by history like that, or is it just me? :smiley:

All this is why I get so angry when trashy series like “The Tudors” think they have to make up a bunch of sexy nonsense to keep things interesting.

You shouldn’t have to make anything up. I mean, look at Eleanor of Aquitaine. That’s good meaty history right there.

Oh, no - I love this sort of stuff. But you are missing one whole branch of the story!

Edmund’s son Edward the Exile is spirited off to Sweden to be killed, but instead ( who knows why ) was then sent to Hungary, where he married an intriguingly obscure wife of possibly imperial antecedents named Agatha. Recalled to England to succeed Edward the Confessor as legitimate heir to the Saxon dynasty, he dies, possibly murdered, within two days of his arrival in England.

Edward the Exile’s son Edgar Atheling is then left as the only male-line descendent of the house of Cerdic. Bypassed due to his youth ( and Godwinson power ), he is proclaimed king in the wake of Hastings but never crowned. He then begins a peripatetic life that involves trying and failing to invade and conquer England with the aid of his Scottish in-laws, ( probably ) fighting in the First Crusade as part of Robert of Normandy’s contingent, possibly siring a son off a Greek princess, supporting his nephew and namesake in his successful bid for the Scottish throne, fighting in the decisive battle at Tinchebrai between the brothers Robert of Normandy and Henry I and dieing in ( presumed ) comfort of old age on an English estate. Remarkable story of a prince who never quite caught the brass ring, but nonetheless had a very successful life in all other respects.

And I didn’t even cover why the various factions each thought they had a valid claim to the throne! The Normans swore that Harold — possibly captured, possibly shipwrecked — promised William his support in claiming the throne, and that Harold betrayed his oath; Hardrada claimed that Canute and Magnus agreed to hand over England to whichever of them outlived the other; and his own brother Tostig (once Earl of Northumbria) was only invading England because Harold had ousted him earlier that year. Shit… Harold kinda had a bad year.

He might have won at Hastings had he not had to race north to defend York, had he not offended his brother Tostig in the first place. And even then, he might have won had he stopped to gather more forces en route to stop William.

Seeing as how the OP is interested in history can I recommend England, History of a Nation by David Ross

That’s nothing. The history of the princes in the tower (Edward V of England, and his brother Richard of Shrewsbury) is especially heartbreaking – King Richard III imprisoned both boys in The Tower of London and they were never seen again, presumably murdered to eliminate Richard’s rivals to the throne.

“Power corrupts…and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

I’ll be there shortly — presently up to 1347, Edward III, the plague, etc.

And I will try to find that book, chowder… seems like I’ll get a more rounded view if I read more than one history. :slight_smile:

It’s hard to top the reign of Edward II for soap opera.

Edward II really wasn’t a bad guy, nor was he some effeminate milquetoast ala Braveheart. He was tall, handsome, and had a good sense of humor. He was also considered sort of a weirdo by the standards of his time because his hobbies included things like thatching houses and going swimming. It sounds pretty harmless to us but back then I guess princes didn’t hang out with peasants and build huts with their own hands. Anyway.

Edward had an, ah, close relationship with Piers Gaveston. In 1306, they were knighted together during the Festivals of the Swans, along with many other notables of the realm. Edward was 22, Piers probably that age plus or minus a year or two. Others who were present and knighted at the ceremony included:
Roger Mortimer, aged 19, Edward and Piers’ companion. Watch out for him – he’s going to become the lover of Edward’s queen and eventually have Edward murdered.
Hugh le Despenser, aged about 18, who had recently married Edward’s niece, Eleanor de Clare. He and Mortimer are already blood enemies (Mortimer’s grandfather killed Despenser’s grandfather in the Battle of Evesham) and he and Edward are not at this time very close. He’s at least as much of a snake as Mortimer.
Roger Damory, one of Edward’s future favorites. He’s going to get killed fighting Despenser in 1322.
Edmund Fitzalan, earl of Arundel, aged 21, who would later become one of Gaveston’s murderers. Executed by Mortimer and Queen Isabella in 1326.
John Maltravers, who later became one of Edward’s jailers at Berkeley.
Bartholomew de Badlesmere and John de Mowbray, both executed by Despenser in 1322.

One can only imagine this scene, these young men congratulating each other, smiling, laughing, pleased with themselves. Their whole lives ahead of them.

Edward asked his father, King Edward I, to give Piers the county of Ponthieu, which King Edward angrily turned down. He then exiled Piers Gaveston from England in 1307, probably mostly to punish his son, as he seems to have been rather fond of Piers himself. Edward loaded Piers down with gifts, said a tearful farewell, then sent him to Ponthieu instead of Gascony, as King Edward had ordered.

Piers had only been there a few weeks when Big Bad Daddy Edward keeled over. Edward was now king, and he joyously recalled his friend. He made Piers earl of Cornwall (a royal county) and married him to his own niece, Margaret de Clare. Now, the problem was Gaveston had a way of pissing off powerful men. Edward was infatuated with him and depended on him, and refused to even see any of the barons unless Gaveston was there with him. Gaveston also gave the barons insulting nicknames and beat the crap out of them at tourneys. The barons hated this guy. They forced him into exile two more times, in 1308 and 1311. Each time Edward brought him back, gave him honors, and returned him to his affections. Each time the grudges held against Gaveston festered and festered.

Meanwhile, Edward himself took a royal bride, Isabella of France. There’s no evidence to suggest she disliked him at all; in fact, they seem to have been very fond of each other. Their wedding was a star-studded event. Their first child, yet another Edward, was born November 13, 1312 (interestingly, if you count back nine months, that places his conception to February, when Edward and Isabella were in York celebrating the birth of Gaveston’s daughter. Must’ve been a party).

In 1312, Gaveston was back after his third exile. His enemies had had enough. They were determined to get rid of him, once and for all. The earls of Warwick, Arundel, Lancaster, and Hereford teamed up to kidnap him. He was taken to Blacklow Hill, run through with a sword, beheaded, then left in the street. Edward was heartbroken, but he also had a war with Scotland on his hands. Edward’s forces were defeated at Bannockburn, and his cousin Thomas of Lancaster (one of Piers’ murderers) almost took over the government. As it happened, the other barons didn’t like him anymore than they’d liked Gaveston, and got him out of power – but remember him. He’s not done yet.

Several new favorites flittered in and out of Edward’s life. Roger Damory had distinguished himself at Bannockburn and Edward took an interest in him. He married Damory (a lowly knight of no rank) to his own niece, Elizabeth de Clare, in 1317 and lavished gifts on them. Two other favorites were Hugh de Audley (who had married Gaveston’s widow Margaret) and William de Montacute, but Edward didn’t find anyone to take Gaveston’s place until Despenser unexpectedly stepped into the role.

I say unexpectedly because before 1318, Despenser and Edward downright didn’t like each other. What happened is the so-called Middle Party, led by Pembroke and Badlesmere, put Despenser into Edward’s household as chamberlain to keep an eye on him. Edward’s feelings about Despenser being forced on him didn’t seem to last long, as over the next two years Despenser wrapped himself around Edward and had him completely infatuated. When Despenser said “Jump”, Edward said, “How high, sir?” By 1321, everyone had figured out that Despenser was way more dangerous than Damory or Gaveston had ever been, but by then it was too late.

Despenser was going around snapping up lands and making sure no one but him had any sort of access to Edward. Roger Mortimer, who had been Edward and Gaveston’s buddy from the old days, showed back up (he’d been in Ireland for a few years). Remember now that he and Despenser despised each other, and here’s Despenser basically ruling the country for Edward. Things came to a head when Edward II confiscated Gower to give it to Despenser. This enraged the lords, and many stormed out of the court. Roger Mortimer actually stuck around for awhile – he didn’t leave until 1321 – perhaps he hoped that Edward would come to his senses and get out from under Despenser.

Damory and Audley rebelled against Despenser. Damory died fighting, and Audley ended up in jail until 1326, when Mortimer released him. The barons attacked Despenser’s property and looted, sacked, and pillaged. Edward struck back; among those captured was his friend Roger Mortimer. Mortimer was imprisoned in the Tower of London, but he escaped the day before his execution and fled to France. Thomas of Lancaster was defeated at the Battle of Boroughbridge and beheaded in 1322. The earl of Hereford, Edward II’s brother-in-law, was killed during that battle as well.

Now, Queen Isabella seems to have been terrified of Despenser. She alleged that he sent assassins after her, and from what we know of Despenser, I have to figure she was right to be afraid of him. She left and went to France to hide out at her brother’s court. And that’s where she ran into Mortimer.

Now, let’s resist the temptation to romanticize this. Mortimer was a desperate man. His title, lands, and family had been confiscated by Edward II and Despenser. He was a wanted man. He had nothing to lose. Mortimer was desperate for revenge, and when Queen Isabella fell into his lap, he seized the opportunity. In addition, Edward II sent his son and heir, Prince Edward, to France to do homage for Gascony. This seems like a stupid move on Edward II’s part, but you have to understand that Gascony was forfeit unless homage was done to the French king. He couldn’t do it himself, because if he left the country then the barons would kill Despenser. He couldn’t take Despenser with him, because Despenser faced a death sentence for piracy in France. So the only option open to him was to send his son.

Isabella and Mortimer got a hold of Prince Edward, and then invaded England. The earl of Lancaster joined with them, and London rose in support of the queen. Edward II’s own brothers Edmund and Thomas joined them. Edward must’ve been horrified and bewildered when his own wife and former best friend showed back up, looking for revenge. He fled, taking Despenser with him, which just goes to show how strong Despenser’s hold on him was – he refused to give up Despenser even when the threat was losing his country and his life.

Edward’s own cousin Henry of Lancaster captured them in 1326. Edward II was sent to Kenilworth. Despenser was taken to Hereford, where Mortimer and Isabella were waiting for him. Despenser, no doubt aware of what was in store for him attempted to starve himself to death. Isabella and Mortimer were anxious that they should not be cheated of their revenge, so Hugh was executed at Hereford in the presence of Queen Isabella and her 14-year-old son, Prince Edward. He was tortured, dragged through the streets, half-strangled, mutilated (his testicles, penis, entrails, and heart were all cut out), and then finally beheaded, but I figure the missing heart did him in long before his head got lopped off. His head was mounted on London Bridge. His widow was imprisoned in the Tower and several of his daughters forcibly veiled as nuns.

Mortimer and Isabella quickly became as bloodthirsty as Despenser had been. They beheaded the earl of Arundel, who had been one of Despenser’s supporters (and a participant in the murder of Mortimer’s buddy Gaveston). Despenser’s father, also named Hugh, was beheaded and his body fed to dogs. Many more of Despenser’s cronies were also tortured and murdered.

Edward II himself was sent to Berkeley and apparently killed (or died on his own). The story of the hot poker is from way after the fact, and probably didn’t happen. Some biographers think that he wasn’t murdered, but that Mortimer allowed him to secretly escape to Italy and live out his life in peace, but to be perfectly frank, I think that’s the stupidest bullshit I’ve ever heard. The idea that Mortimer would let Edward II waltz out of prison and gallavant away into the sunset boggles my mind. I mean, wtf kind of chat was that?

ROGER: Oh, hey Ned. How’s tricks.
EDWARD: Same old, same old. Drinking muddy water, eating rats. Y’know, 'cause you have me in this stinking fucking prison.
ROGER: Aw, don’t be that way, dude. Let’s let bygones be bygones. Here, I’ll unlock the door.
EDWARD: You’re going to let me go? After I imprisoned you in the Tower, imprisoned your family, let Despenser run roughshod over the country…
ROGER:… and then I fucked your queen, invaded your country, turned your family and friends against you, killed your boyfriend, and stuck you in this miserable pit. I say we’re even.
EDWARD: Aw, dude.
ROGER: Dude.
EDWARD: Dude!
They high-five. Edward strolls out of the prison. The End.

WTF. Okay, whatever happened, Edward II was out of the picture. Mortimer set about busily proving he didn’t learn a damn thing from the examples of Gaveston and Despenser. He bestowed an earldom upon himself in 1328, and took to ‘ruling’ England like a king with Isabella at his side. His own son called him ‘the king of folly’ to his face. All this made Henry of Lancaster (the brother of Thomas who was executed in 1322) uneasy, and he rebelled against the Mortimer regime. The rebellion was put down, but he seems to have secretly plotted with Prince Edward. Edward II’s brother Edmund also had second thoughts about Mortimer and Isabella, and attempted to break his brother (who was probably dead) out of prison in 1330. Mortimer and Isabella had him executed.

A few months later, Isabella and Edward II’s teenaged son Edward III was apparently fed up with this ‘mommy and stepdaddy’ stuff. He and some guys got together, snatched Mortimer literally out of Isabella’s bed, and hanged him. Isabella was not punished, nor did she go insane or anything stupid like that. She lived on and off at court and did quite well for herself until her death in 1358. Of all the major players in this story, she’s the only one who didn’t suffer a premature, hideous death.

And these people were my ancestors.
twitch

It’s entirely possible to be descended from Edward II, Isabella, Hugh le Despenser, and Roger Mortimer. Unfortunately, Gaveston’s descendants seem to have died out.

Schama’s book doesn’t go much into all of that detail on Edward II, being primarily concerned with the grander sweeps of nation-building — Edward I got many more inches of text devoted to him, most of a chapter in fact. Now I’ll have to devote some time to a different book of English history to get more of the juicy details!

The weird thing is, I have a history degree, and am getting a master’s in history, and I’m not interested in this kind of stuff. I always disappoint people because they think I’ll know this stuff. My specialty is 16th and 17th-century history, so people always ask me about Henry VIII and Louis XIV. Sorry, don’t know much more than anyone else who’s watched Elizabeth. :smiley:

But I’m extremely glad that people are interested in it, because it makes (a few) jobs for us history majors.

I love medieval and Renaissance history–as others have said, you couldn’t make this stuff up. It’s one big, bloody soap opera full of sex, money and intrigue. I’m glad as hell that I didn’t live then, but for pure entertainment value, it’s hard to beat.

Fish: I have the book in front of me as I type,

ISBN is 1-84205-319-1

Thanks, chowder. Amazon.com has a used copy for 25 bucks … nothing new, might be out of print. I’ll check the used bookstores.

General histories make me hinky, because so many of them are written by journalists and other amateur historians who don’t know how to properly research this time period. In general, stay away from anything by Alison Weir. My tastes tend to run towards the scholarly. I’d recommend:

King Edward II by Roy Martin Haines, 2003. I haven’t read this one but it’s supposed to be good.

Edward I by Michael Prestwich, 1997. The definitive biography.

Eleanor of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady by Bonnie Wheeler and John Carmi Parsons, 2003. Decent scholarly books and essays about Eleanor are hard to find, but this is a gem.

King John: New Interpretations by S. D. Church, 1999. As the title suggests, an intriguing look at a much-maligned king.

The Reign of Henry III by David Carpenter, 1996. A fantastic book about the most obscure Plantagenet king. Fill in your knowledge of the king between John and Edward I.

Eleanor of Castile by John Carmi Parsons, 1997. What did it mean to be a queen in the 13th century? Parsons discusses the fascinating Spanish-born queen of Edward I and takes us beyond the chere reine crosses.

$25 for a used copy?

Sod that…email me with your home address and I’ll mail my copy to you FOC.

You just pay postage if that’s OK

Not just yet, chowder: I still have some used bookstores to cruise through.

If I still can’t locate the book I’ll trade you some Bacon Salt for it. :slight_smile:

I just emailed you, but it’s a deal for the BS:D