Irrational beliefs need to be challenged, especially when credulous people are put at risk of death or injury becasue of them.
Crystals are quackery, pure and simple. Sorry, Upham, but when you make medical claims for crystals, then you have to deal with the possibility that they will be tested. So far, the claims of crystal healing powers have not been demonstrated, making them utterly worthless. If wearing a tourmaline crystal or a bit of rose quartz around your neck makes you happy, nobody can question that. In addition, crystals are pretty and they accessorize most outfits very becomingly. However, they don’t cure diseases or promote physical healing. It’s not a mattewr of belief, but of evidence. I wouldn’t mock a Christian’s faith in Jesus, but if a Christian said that a holy relic could cure cancer, then he had better be prepared to test that proposition.
I think it’s important to differentiate between the believer and the belief. Ad hominem attacks on people, like, “Crystal wearers are gulllible fools,” are mean. However, it’s perfectly OK to say that crystals have no demonstrated medical properties. Just because you believe something passionately doesn’t make it necessarily so.
::dashes in with cape all disheveled::
Sorry I’m late…
In the OP, you’ll recall, Johnny laughed at the line “she digs the chi in it, too.” Absolutely hilarious, I’ll agree. He took his derision to the pit where it belongs. Well done. The pit is exactly the place for laughing at whomever you choose, and judging by some of the more inflammatory OPs in the pit, Johnny Angel’s was a kiss on the cheek.
I sympathize with Johnny Angel. It’s tough to keep respect for someone who’s brain is so clearly out of whack as to believe that rocks can heal you…IMHO, of course. The idea is so positively medieval that it’s akin to asserting that, no joke, there really IS a Santa Claus.
We’re getting close to GD territory, I know, and we’ll get there again, and again. That’s the problem—that’s why I vent about it. That’s why I understand Johnny’s venting about it: It seems that every time I finish explaining to someone how the earth is clearly round (for example), they proudly state “Well, that’s just YOUR opinion…and MY opinion is that the world is flat and YOU can’t prove that it isn’t!” Of course, they have a right to that opinion, but it gets to be a bit frustrating. Perhaps if they’re laughed at long enough, they’ll question why they’re being laughed at. If someone is honestly asking for elucidation, I’m quite happy to oblige—but often they’ve already made a decision based on poor critical thinking, and it’s not the decision that is the problem, but rather the method by which they arrived at that decision. This is really difficult to undo. Virtually impossible. Thus is bred a shouting match. It happens all the time. This is the place to shout…Johnny, shout away.
To all the new-age healing psychic chiropractic crystal homeopaths:
I fully respect your right as an individual to be treated civilly, and to be respected in your opinions. You must conversely respect my right to be treated civilly, and to be respected in my opinion that you are an idiot.
And just what are you implying here?! Are you saying there ISN’T a Santa Claus? What’s next, an all out attack on the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy? What’d they ever do to you?
When I was a kid, I used to grow my own crystals. I find it patently suspicious that these artifically dug up and faceted crystals are supposed to have better mystical properties than my homebrew inch-and-a-half alum crystal.
The following message recently appeared on another BBS, and a friend has forwarded it to me:
This is, I think, one of the sad consequences of the War on Drugs – kids hooked on cleaning products. This cat wants to be both a Christian and a pagan, and also he wants to be a `warrior/knight’, even though one would guess that he’s not any more studied in the arts of war or chivalry than he is in the structure and syntax of the English language.
:inor pulls on cape to whirl Jingo around, Clint Eastwood glint in his eye:
Hey now Fella- Don’t be after lumping those particular charlatans in with the rest- if it wasn’t for my chiropractor, I’dve had to had serious back surgery long ago- still will at some point, but the chiro keeps me goin for now.
It does add to the rhythm of the sentence though…
Sorry, Esprix there was supposed to be a :rolleyes: up there. I’ve corrected my mistake.
I’ll explain the difference between crystal healing, etc. and Christianity (or any other religion) is that if you have cancer (or some other life-threatening, treatable disease) and you are convinced to use rocks to cure yourself, you will DIE in about the same amount of time as if you did nothing (which is what you are effectively doing, placebo effect or no). If someone convinces you to accept Christianity (or some other religion), and it doesn’t work, you don’t go to heaven (or reincarnate, or become one with everything and nothing, or whatever).
I’m glad that you said that the chiro helped you with your back, 'cause if you would have said that he cured your dyspepsia, or your genital warts, or anything not related to your back, I might have had to sit you down and lectured you :).
Oh, and not to imply that inor has or ever has had dyspepsia, or genital warts, or any other medical problem not related to his back.
People are believing all kinds of ridiculous things. We’re just not supposed to tell 'em? Anything and everything goes?
Try telling that to someone who lost a family member to the “Heavens Gate” cult awhile back. It’s an extreme example I know, but there is alot to lose sometimes by turning your head.
Oh, by the way, just to perfectly clear, I strongly disapprove of people believing in the healing power of crystals (because it discourages said people to seek real medical treatment). In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you wear an amethyst crystal because you truly believe it will heal you or keep you healthy, you deserve to have that crystal shoved up your ass (an amethyst up the ass will drain the body of chi energy, killing you (thus weeding another stupid person out of the gene pool)).
I’m sorry, I just feel like goofing around with this topic .
Now to exceed the 10 word rule, and go into a bit of depth….
Of course there are exceptions to almost every rule, and this is, well, no exception.
Firstly, if you make some claim that potion X, or action Y will cause a definite measurable change, you better be able to put your money where your mouth is. In other words, if someone makes a claim, and there is evidence pointing towards the falsehood of said claim, you have every right to speak out and present your evidence. On the other hand, if a person makes a claim where there is no evidence concerning it either way, or is untestable, then I don’t really think its anyone’s place to disabuse them of these notions. To borrow an example from Carl Sagan’s Demon Haunted World, imagine that someone claims to have an invisible, undetectable dragon in their garage. While you may feel that this is simply a quaint delusion, they believe it to be the truth. You have no concrete proof that an invisible, undetectable dragon is not there, while they have no proof that it is. Seeing as how no one really holds the high ground, I see no problem in letting them believe in a harmless folly. I also feel there isn’t a problem in stating that you do not believe, and why you don’t, but out right dismissal is a bit much. Just because it may seem ridiculous doesn’t mean it’s wrong. A similar example can be used concerning the existence of God(s) [sub][I hesitated to use that as a primary example though, because, well that’s a whole 'nother kettle of fish, which has been cooked to death. Also, the wording, such as “quaint delusion”, that I used in the previous example doesn’t necessarily apply to the belief in God, though YMMV.][/sub]
This actually brings up the second point, concerning harm. This applies to your example with the Heavens Gate Cult. While disabusing someone of what you feel is an incorrect belief isn’t really necessary, I feel it is necessary to make them fully aware of a harmful one. If, through their belief, they are going to harm themselves or someone else needlessly, they need to be made aware of that fact, evidence or no. Using the Heavens Gate Cult as a loose example, belief that a rocket ship is hiding behind a comet and is waiting to take you away to a better place, isn’t wrong simply because it seems outlandish. If you feel that the only way to board is to kill yourself though, then you have crossed over the line.
Yeah, a friend of mine is in the same predicament…of course he substitutes the word “vodka” for the word “chiropractor.” But—same result.
If this were GQ or GD, I’d link to the skeptic’s dictionary, Skeptic mag, etc… but this is your lucky day, as we’re in the pit. And I don’t even have to stay strictly on-topic! Hey, I’m growing fond of this here pit.
Quackery is quackery, no matter how you slice it…If a man were apparently a brilliant neurosurgeon, but also truly believed that disease was caused by evil spirits, I would seriously question his surgical skills—because his beliefs call into question his critical thinking skills, something I believe essential for a good surgeon to have.
“Subluxations” :rolleyes:
How do you know you’ll need back surgery? Did the chiropractor tell you that? Did you see an actual doctor? Why wouldn’t the chiropractor perform the surgery him/her self? Did a real doctor really tell you to continue chiropractic treatment?
Chiropractors fall into the same category as crystal-healers…they often prevent people from seeking proper medical attention. Here’s a hint: If you have a medical problem—see a fucking DOCTOR.
Yeah- I have a condition called spondylolysis- one of my vertebrae didn’t form correctly. That has been aggravated by a skydiving accident (actually the fall went rather well- I suppose I should say a landing accident) where I broke my back. Further aggravated by scoliosus, which was in turn worsened by the rods they put in my back, and which in turn has further aggravated the spondylo. What happens is that particular vertebrae slides off the one below it- I saw it in xray- thought he was showing me one of those things like in a dentists office- you know those pics they have of all the shitty things that can happen to your mouth if you don’t go regularly?
Nope, though, it was my back. Anyway, yes, a surgeon has informed me that I need surgery, and that while I may be able to put it off for a while, at some point I won’t be able to. If I could afford it, I’d do it now, believe me. When my back goes out, it’s excruciating- I am pretty much immobilized, and it fucks up my whole life- imagine living alone and having a 1 to 4 week period now and then where about the only thing you can do is stay on the couch, where you scream just from the act of taking a shit…
To get to it- In the last year, I have visited a chiropractor when it went out. He popped me and the next day I hurt worse than ever. After that though, I got right again. After a month of no improvement. This happened more than once. There is no doubt in my mind that the manipulation is what did it.
I, too, used to be skeptical. No more. I will say though, that I think there are some exagerated claims out there about the discipline.
But ya know? Take something like this. It has it’s (to somebody like me- invaluable) uses. Somebody makes some WA claims about other uses that may or may not be true.
Enter some fucking “skeptic”- ‘debunks’ the whole mess- fuck that, that pisses me off- Who made some skeptic god? Just because someone got some org or other that ‘debunks’ stuff, doesn’t mean they are somehow exempt from the same emotional and rational follies that the rest of us are subject to. Yeah, lots of times they are right. But, if they’re syaing chiropracty is useless, then fuck em for the ignorant, close-minded, no-unbiased-research-doin, smug bastards they are.
It’s easier to rip something down totally than to investigate. And it’s easier to ‘quote’ alleged authority to investigate also.
Chiros do have some practices I think are not good. But they helped me and others I know.
Wow. I didn’t even really know chiropractors were widely considered quacks. I thought they were just “back doctors”. You know, some doctors specialize in feet, some in hearts, some in bones, some in backs. Okay, maybe back doctors without a full medical degree. That don’t work at hospitals. Okay, so I never gave it much thought. I’d have realized it sooner or later.
Fun fact: Humans are far more vulnerable to back problems than virtually all vertebrates. This is because the basic structure of the human back is that of a quadruped, except bent at a relatively unnatural angle.
Crystals are quartz. Quartz is one of the most common minerals. Quartz is in the bricks of your apartment building, in your driveway, underfoot. It’s everywhere. DIRT HAS QUARTZ IN IT! FUCKING BEACH SAND IS QUARTZ! So why buy it?
People who want to live a rational life.
People who want to irradicate ignorance.
People who don’t want to see humanity’s future fall into mysticism.
People who see the danger of a highly technological society full of people who know nothing about science & technology.
Faith is fine, but it should not supercede reality, IMHO.
All crystals are not quartz but quartz is a crystal. In fact quartz is silicon dioxide (SiO2), crystalized in a six-sided prism, capped with pyramidical end pieces. Quartz is ranked 7th on the Mho’s scale of hardness. (Talc, the softest is number 1 and diamond, the hardest is number 10) Quartz has a density of 2.65 grams per cubic centimeter. The usual form of quartz is called “Alpha Quartz.” Quartz that has been heated higher than 573 Degrees C transforms into “Beta Quartz.” Quartz will melt at 1753 Degrees C. Quartz is also enantiamorphous–it occurs in both “right” and “left” handed form. Quartz is a piezoelectric material, which is to say that it exhibits the piezoelectric effect. Large quartz crystals can be quite beautiful. My office is decorated with pieces of quartz, both natural and cultured.
I have dealt with quartz daily for twenty-five plus years. I have held it, stroked it, looked at it, admired its perfection and I have cut it into small slices, for the purpose of manufacturing “piezoelectric quartz crystal units.”
I like quartz (I used to post under the name “Crystalguy”) and quartz has provided me with a decent living for a long time. But it hasn’t made me any smarter and it hasn’t cured a single ailment. Looking at it doesn’t cause me to enter a trance and I don’t channel any dead mystics. I have a lot of pain in my hands and holding quartz does nothing to alleviate it. In short, quartz is a very valuable material, so much so that in excess of 100 million tons of it are grown in autoclaves each and every year. But it ain’t magical and it ain’t mystical and it irks me to hear people say that it is.
Incidentally, quartz crystals were considered by the Greeks to be ice, so perfectly formed by the gods that the necessity of being cold no longer existed. In fact, the word “crystal” comes from the Greek word “krystalos.”
I’ve made no studies and I don’t claim to be an expert, but my uneducated opinion is that the only chi in all this crystal stuff can be found in "cha-CHInnggg"
Of course, I could be wrong…
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