You and Goo are from Australia, no? Didn’t you, the British, America, and other nations lend help in fighting the Japanese in WWII? Didn’t the Australian government authorize it’s troops’ use in Iraq now? Last I heard they did. . . Has the US ever used force in an unjust way? I’m not debating that.
My point: You are damned right that you don’t have to respect anyone. Just remember that you have that God-given, blood-enforced right to think and feel what you want to, because someone else did what they had to do to preserve that right.
Maybe I read it too quickly, but I took the OP as a stance of lending some credibility to those poor saps that have to slog it out with the Iraqis in this conflict. You’re absolutely right: nobody granted your the right to your own thoughts except Mother Nature herself, but I will say that your first two sentences go hand in hand: you can think what you like freely, but to say it openly is also dependent on an openly ‘freely thinking’ society.
Tripler
Now we’re getting into US Revolutionary thought. Where’s Thomas Paine when you need him?
Well, yes, I do still disagree with you. Fighting in a war, where you kill people because the government told you to, is indeed state-mandated killing. I don’t know any soldier who would disagree with that. It may also be protecting our freedom. The two are not always mutually exclusive, you know. If I punch someone in the mouth for kicking my dog, I’m defending the weak and innocent, but I’m also punching someone in the mouth, am I not?
Secondly, people aren’t hoping for a high body count to prove a point. They’re realistic enough to realize that if our losses are fairly low, politicians will downplay the risk in future situations. That means our troops will get put in the line of fire with less cause next time. If the cost is high now, maybe we’ll be more cautious from here on in. I wish anti-war protesters didn’t have to have huge casualty lists behind them to be taken seriously by the government, but that’s how it seems to work.
If I had to lose my dad, or my uncles, or my big brother, or any of the the other men in my life who had enlisted over the years to make people take this as seriously as they should, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Finally, I don’t see anyone talking about throwing rocks at Guardsmen. Your OP was about people marching and waving signs, and calling it like they see it. Your posts in this thread come off mindlessly jingoistic, not to mention pointlessly insulting to anti-war protesters.
So, if it’s all the same to you, I think I won’t chill, and will instead continue to be a bitch.
I don’t think anyone that speaks English would disagree with that. Seems a strange way to say it, unless you are only trying to emphasize the not-often lost point that human beings die in wars.
I dare say that is mostly the reason they are fought.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say, or what you are using to weigh this situation out, but it seems to me like you are saying that more death now would be ok because it would mean less death later, which is, of course, another big reason people fight wars, or at least some want this war to be fought. The skeptical question is just whether or not it will work.
For your case: people have been fighting wars since (presumably) before recorded history. Nations ravaged by war have been rebuilt and become friendly economic powerhouses. I have an idea which one is the crapshoot here.
[Unless I read your comment wrong, in which case forget the previous text]
Read the linked threads. This is exactly what they are wishing.
The logic runs like this:[ul]
[li]The war in Iraq is bad.[/li][li]If enough US and allied troops die, it will become clear to everyone that the war in Iraq is bad[/li][li]Therefore, in some sense I am hoping that Saddam Hussein kills, wounds, and tortures lots of US and allied troops, and remains in power, so it is absolutely clear that war is always wrong.[/ul][/li]
Saying, “I oppose the war, and I hope all the US and allied troops come home safely” is supporting the troops.
Saying, “I oppose the war, and I hope all the US and allied troops come home in body bags so I can say ‘I told you so’” is not supporting the troops.
I can respect those who believe the first. Those who believe the second should be ashamed to waste bandwidth with their filth.
I am from Latin America so that bullshit that your troops are the bulkward of the free world is not going to convince me. I am against this war and I don’t support your troops.
I would really like too but I have more sympathy for the Irakies they are the inva… I mean the liberated.
The military’s job is to put into action the policies enacted by the administration, many of whom were elected into office (not withstanding appointed officials). I imagine most are going with the idea that the majority of Americans think this is the right thing to do.
Regarding civilian casualties:
As ex-military, horrible… Just like I did in every war and terrorist attack that I’ve been alive to witness. In a perfect war we would do the fighting with cotton bullets in some desolated patch of land, far away from any civilian. But warfare throughout history has never been a pretty thing for anyone involved. The only thing you can do when in a war is try to minimize the impact on civilians.
When I listen to talk radio, some of the ultra-conservative talk show hosts go so far to say that liberals hate America. That they want US troops to die because it will prove them right and Bush wrong in some sick sense. That the liberals value the lives of our enemy more than they value the lives of our soldiers without whom we would have no freedom. That liberals are so convinced that their ideas are what’s best that any cost, even wishing for the deaths of US servicemen and women are worth it for them to get their way.
I always thought these ideas to be false. That liberals just have different viewpoints from conservatives, but don’t harbor these awful, sick, twisted and sad views.
Despite the fucking pathetic jackasses who have expressed their ill-will to the troops here and in the linked threads, I will continue to try and remember that you are a minority. That most liberals don’t think this way.
Fucking A! Even Diogenes gets it. You don’t get more liberal or anti-war than him, yet he manages to do it without wishing for US troops to fucking die.
All you sick, ungrateful losers fucking suck. You are against the war one minute because of your peace and love, hippie, doesn’t belong in the real world, idealistic bullshit. The next minute you are actively hoping for the war to go badly and for US troops to die so that you will win a fucking academic argument.
If you don’t understand the difference between a US marine doing his job trying to free the people of Iraq while minimizing civilian casualties, and an Iraqi Fedayeen Saddam member terrorizing his own people then you have fucking shit for brains. I refuse to believe that any fuckstick on this board could actually be so stupid not to understand which one they should be rooting for. If you can honestly tell me that you don’t know which one you would rather have die, then you need to take a long look at yourself in the mirror.
And for all you fucksticks wishing for large US casualties why don’t you fucking do us all a favor and put your shit for brains ass where your big fucking piehole mouth is and help causing some of those massive casualties you wish for.
eris, I was responding to the OP’s assertion that soldiers shouldn’t be called “state mandated killers” when that is, in point of fact, what they are. The use of the phrase as quoted in the OP is nothing but a statement of fact, and not worth a Pitting. (Hey, she asked if I still disagreed with her.)
I was also responding to her implication that the people who were wanting a high body count are just looking for a chance to dance around singing “Told you so, told you so! Neener, neener, neener!” It’s just that sometimes it takes a lot of corpses for people to back up and ask, “Are we really sure this is a good idea?” If the back up and reconsider point came, oh say, before we deployed troops, it would be absolutely fabulous by me. Unfortunately, it only seems to come when we’ve had really heavy losses. Life sucks that way sometimes.
Oh, and Debaser, can you please explain the difference between a Marine and an Iraqi soldie? I have shit for brains and can’t see the difference between two men who have agreed to risk their lives to make sure a country gets run the way they think it ought to be run. Oh, wait, our way is the right way. Never mind.
I’ll say this: although I’ve disagreed vehemently with Dinsdale et al in the linked thread, there’s something else to look at:
While I hope as few people as possible die in this conflict, I prioritize Iraqi civilian lives over the lives of anyone in a volunteer army. I prioritize conscripted soldiers’ lives over the lives of folks in a volunteer army. I prioritize members of the US and British volunteer army over those in the Iraqi volunteer armed forces. Inasmuch as antiwar protests keep the pressure on the administration not to devalue civilian lives (e.g., allowing soldiers to target hospitals etc. with heavy weaponry when guerillas are using them as cover and blaming Hussein for any civilian casualties), I think that’s a positive thing.
And though I sincerely hope no more US/British soldiers die, if their deaths can impress on people the fact that this is a bad war fought for bad reasons, then I will think that’s a positive effect from an otherwise tragic situation.
Marines are avoiding civilian casualties as carefully as they can, even at the cost of thier own lives. Today Iraqi Fedayeen troops deliberately fired on 1,000 fleeing civilians.
Marines follow the geneva convention rules of war. Saddam’s feydayeen ingnores them completely. Like pretending to attmempt to surrender to initiate a surprise attack.
(this cite also refers to the 1,000 fleeing civilians they shot at.)
All of these articles were things I grabbed from current headlines. This isn’t going back 10 years and looking for every bad act. This is the things that they have done today or very recently.
If you want to get into the history of these terrorizing motherfuckers we could start talking about rape rooms, killing children in front of watching parents, lowering political prisoners into a plastic shredder, etc.
So, it’s not a simple matter of they, like the marines risking thier lives to “make sure a country gets run the way they think it ought to be run.” You dumb fucking cunt.
Comparing the Feydayeen to the US Marines would make sense if the Marines went to your house and gang-raped you for the political opinions of your husband.
If you seriously can’t tell the difference between these two groups then you do have shit for brains.
I’ve really tried to ignore a lot of the shit that you spew, but I just couldn’t let this one go by. Dude, blow it out your ass, banana republic boy, your waaah’s over latin america, etc., are a fart in a hurricane. With relatives in Panama and Colombia, and a couple of dove hunting trips in your backyard, I’ve gotten a look of how the US is viewed in S.A., and your petty-assed pipsqueaking is pathetic. Pull your head out of your ass, Che-wannabe, and get a job.
You have to look at the big picture. If the US wins this war quickly with few casualties, it will boost Bush’s chances of winning in 2004. That would be a disaster for our country. Therefore, the best outcome is for the US to lose this war and suffer heavy casualties. Then most likely, Bush will lose the election and we can restore democracy in America. In this scenario, the US soldiers are still dying to defend freedom in America. The greatest proven threat to freedom in America is the Bush/Ashcroft/Rumsfeld/Cheney axis of evil.
BF stands for buttfuck which is probably what you enjoy the most. You are a total embarassment to real Americans, who know how much we have fucked over Central and South America to enable our criminal corporations to rob and exploit them. Read so fucking history, asswipe.
Our founding fathers would have loved it if we had the right to dissent and that is what we are doing in opposition of this war. What, you don’t want us to come out and carry our banners anymore? Anybody in any regime can kiss the king’s ring and that’s not worth anyone’s dying for, not is it patriotic.