I am looking for stories of people who, at least in part because of a number of reasoned discussions over some period of time (perhaps even years), moved eventually from a more “law and order” oriented view of socio-political or race issues, to a more justice oriented view of these issues.
So for example, a movement from being the sort of person who would angrily insist that “all lives matter” to being the sort of person who would think it very wrong to make that reply to #blacklivesmatter. Or a movement from being the sort of person who would disapprove of the recent rescension of a large number of arrest warrants in Ferguson MO to being the sort of person who would cheer this move on. Or a movement from being the sort of person who looks for a way to excuse police officers on practically any bare logical grounds in cases of police violence to being the sort of person who expects extra scrutiny in cases of police violence.
Are you such a person? Do you exist? Tell your story here! Make me believe it’s possible!
I’m such a person, though my transition was from conservative teenager to liberal adult, which may be different from what you’re asking.
I grew up in a very white town in the middle of the country. My high school had one black kid. He was from Nigeria. Seriously. For us, racism was a historical issue, or a big city issue. To the extent we thought about it at all, most of us held the stereotypical views. We thought gangsta rap was evidence of the violence and misogyny that is at the heart of contemporary black problems. We thought racism was dead and that what remained were cultural and economic problems. Pretty much the standard right-wing line.
What changed for me was a few things. Certainly a part of it was what you call “reasoned discussions”–principally, reading a lot of history and philosophy and talking about it with friends and teachers. I also generally underwent a political conversion from Rush Limbaugh appreciating high school freshman to Rush Limbaugh hating college freshman. I’m sure that had lots of causes, including reasoned discussion. And that of course changed what sources I spent time on and what biases I had. (And I can’t even blame evil liberal college, because the transition really happened in my late high school years.)
I think that is a fairly common arc for kids from conservative places who like to read. So I’m not sure if fits what you’re asking, but there you go.
Sorta. My OCD made me a big rules follower for a while. But it was more learning about OCD and just seeing my childish black-and-white world crumble around me that led me to change, not really any sort of debate.
I was never much a law and order person but I have seen people change in this way as they got older. I think it takes time to understand how injustices can be built into the law, and how the application of the law isn’t necessarily fair. It’s not an exact match for what you’re looking for, but Barry Goldwater went through a transition like that. Labeled as a conservative extremist in 1964, by the 80s with Reagan in office he was considered a liberal in his own party. I’d say someone needs to learn to appreciate shades of gray instead of seeing the world in black and white.
I was never a rabid law-and-order type, but I leant in that direction. I’ve gradually changed my view based on experience of self and friends, and news stories. Not just police forces, but other law enforcement and elements of the U.S. justice system are severely flawed. I’ve friends who’ve pled guilty when innocent becuase that’s the way to get released from jail. :smack: My personal experiences are very limited, although in the early 1970’s I was ticketed and arrested for, essentially, having long hair. In other minor contacts I’ve often found U.S. cops to be insolent but, having the sense to act submissively, I’ve never been physically mistreated.
I often try to compare U.S. and Thailand. In my encounters here (nothing worse than traffic violations) I’ve personally found Thai cops to be friendly and fair – though I know that Thailand’s cops and justice system are more flawed in some ways than U.S.'s. (Westerners are generally treated much better here than expats of other ethnicities.)
(Another issue where I’ve changed over the decades is foreign policy. I used to support America’s brand of “imperialism” but have become more cynical (less naive) about America’s motives and the effects of their foreign policies.)
When I was younger I was always more comfortable with clear rules and consequences–black and white law and order suited me just fine because it let me know what to do. This is useful when you struggle with impulses to misbehave, and uncertainty about who is and is not out to set you up for failure. I believed that if I followed the rules, I would get along just fine.
In my 30s I woke up and realized following the rules only makes you a predictable victim. Those who truly flourish in life make their own rules, and in many cases make the rules for others. I started to rely less and less on rules, and increasingly on common sense. A number of events demonstrated to me the Judicial System exists essentially to impose penalties and has little interest in justice or maintaining peace.
So yeah, at some point I think it makes perfect sense to realize laws have little to do with justice, and in fact are frequently used to perpetrate injustice.
I guess I fit that category. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and reading on race issues in the past year, partly in response to stuff in the news and partly for personal reasons. When I saw reports of violence, looting, and fires during protests, I thought, “That’s stupid. Why destroy your own neighborhood?” But I couldn’t leave it as a rhetorical question. I thought about what it would take for me to take to the streets and start tearing things up. I would have to be very angry. I would have to feel like I couldn’t make things worse than they already were, that I had nothing to lose, and that I wouldn’t be heard any other way. I have, on a smaller scale, been in a position where I had to hurt myself in order to get help, and I think it’s pretty shitty for a society to make people feel that way.
The police thing is complicated. Having grown up with a mentally unstable cop for a dad, I have some strong opinions there. I’m all for scrutiny and accountability, but there needs to be prevention first.
When I was younger, I had two feet firmly planted in a “fair world” fantasy. “Only bad people do X. I won’t ever do X because I’m a good person. Thus, I don’t have worry about Y.” I needed this assurance so I wouldn’t worry about stuff.
Sure, I was raised with a liberal/progressive consciousness. I’ve always been aware that shitty things happen to good people. But it was just a theoretical understanding.
Like, I used to believe in the death penalty. Seemed to me that is a fair punishment for taking a life. The “fair world” believer in me couldn’t conceive of a true innocent being caught up in the system. Nor could I conceive of someone who had mitigating circumstances. Those things don’t exist in a “fair world”.
As I got older, I realized that saying “everyone makes choices” is a lie that people tell themselves to paint over the inherent unfairness of life. Because the alternative–"everyone acts out behaviors that someone or something put in motion days, months, or even millenia ago–makes the world way too complicated and crazy-making. I think dealing with mental illness for a few years helped me to see how much “self-control” is an illusion. Once I let go of the illusion, it became easier to stop labeling people “good” and “bad”. Now I just say “normal” and “messed up”.
If someone is messed up, by definition they have migitating circumstances. Which requires an approach that is more about justice than “you must suffer now!”