Your fat is spilling into my seat

The BBQ Pit
241

I dislike the constant “blame the big airline corporation” line. Passengers (as a group) are just as complicit in the state of air travel today. More passengers will opt for the cheapest ticket regardless of relative comfort. Airline travel is a volume business, so to keep volume, airlines must match price. If an airline must cut prices, then services (including roomier seating accomodations) get cut. Passengers have spoken with their loudest voice, the pocketbook, and the airlines have listened. Price counts most.

Jet Blue is trying to break the mold by offering better accomodations. With it’s very young fleet, maintenance costs are low, and they can afford to keep prices low (although they are not the cheapest). Also, Jet Blue only flies popular, well-populated routes. That’s great if you live in a popular, well-populated area, but those who live in Topeka, Kansas are out of luck.

242

I’m tired of you tiny little shits designing everything for a 5’6" person with anorexia. I’m 6’3", I wear a size 14 sneaker, and my shoulders are 86" around. Do you have any fucking idea how PAINFUL it is to sit in the average car, plane, boat or train seat for me? I mean physically PAINFUL.

And no, there AREN’T other options. I bought the car with the most legroom in its class for its model year (Honda Accord sedan) and my knees still touch the dash when I drive. Yeah, I suppose I could buy a business class seat and get 30% more room, for FOUR TIMES THE PRICE. Sorry, I’m not made of money.

I pay $25-$45 for goddamn teeshirts that YOU can buy for $5-$10, and they sure as hell don’t use 3 times the fabric.

Oh yeah, and I get the looks, comments, and bullshit from skinny people all the time about my size and girth, DESPITE the fact that I’m in a gym 5 to 6 hours a week and I eat maybe 2k calories a day, plus I walk 3 miles every day. No, I don’t eat crap, I don’t drink beer or other forms of alcohol, and I don’t spike my coffee with sugar (I’m diabetic, diet-controlled).

You have NO idea what it is like to be fat, and unwillingly so, in this culture that equates fat with lazy and dumb. Sorry for your inconvenience little people, but how would you like to be in PAIN when you fly, instead of put-upon?

So, shut up, fuck you very much, and for Christ’s sake EAT SOMETHING.

243

Just a question: (wondering how to phrase this so as not to be offensive, though around here that seems impossible)…

Should obese people expect that (for example) Hyundai manufacturers make larger vehicles to fit them better at the same prices as they make their smaller cars?

Car A with ‘x’ amount of driver space should be made available at the same price as Car B with ‘x+y’ driver space?

Of course not. You want more space you pay for it. What is so complicated? If you are not satisfied with the seating arrangements in coach on an airline due to your girth, then find an airline that will accomodate you. Fly “Big Ass Air” as opposed to “Bony Butt Airways”.

On some rural routes there are only small planes available. Should we start flying 747s full of first class seats into the places that do not have to business for them? Of course not. If you cannot fit in the transportation then they are offering, then find another means. You do not have a right to air travel. It is a service offered and if their service does not meet your requirements then find one that does.

Should they redesign teeter totters in kids parks by moving the fulcrum farther to one side to make it possible for the larger child to play on it without needing 3 children on the otehr side? Let’s get real.

244

You want a solution? Ask the attendant for a blanket and curl up in one of her rolls and go to sleep.

Forget about it.

245

I suppose a “what the fuck?” is in order here. Interesting newbie.

246

Making some lemonade. Want some?

247

Well right on, Get Some. It’s nice to see that you’re not, like, a complete moronic jackass or anything.

Moving along, Vanilla Toast, why do I feel like I’m repeating myself over and over? Oh, it’s because I am. I think you’re missing the point which is that there was something this lady could have done. This woman was large horizontally and clearly needed a wider space. It’s not like she was 7’ tall and had to sit keeled over just so her skull would not be crushed by the plane’s ceiling. The lady was just w i d e. She could have bought two seats, she could have refrained from lifting the armrest and allowing her body mass to spill all over me, she could have done something to make the flight more comfortable to herself and me. I’m sorry that not all big people are made of money, but life’s not fair. Does that make it okay to sit in someone’s lap because you can’t afford to pay for the space you take up? And

What is this? Skinny bashing? Oy vey.

248

Indeed – you’re talking about buying tickets on the same day via the same means. I’m talking about buying tickets on different days, perhaps through different means. An example of what I’m talking about:

Itinerary:
Departure: LAX May 1, 9:00 a.m.
Returning: JFK May 9, 7:00 p.m.

Passenger John Doe
Seat 1A (First Class)
Ticket Purchase Date: April 1
Round Trip Fare: $519

Passenger Jane Doe
Seat 19C (Coach)
Ticket Puchase Date: April 27
Round Trip Fare: $728

There’s also this kind of disparity:

Same itinerary as above

Passenger John Q. Public
Seat 19A
Purchase Date: April 1
Purchased By: Calling airline toll-free reservations line
Round Trip Fare: $319

Passenger John Doe
Seat 20A
Purchase Date: April 1
Purchased By: Logging on to airline website
Round Trip Fare: $289

Passenger John Roe
Seat 21A
Purchase Date: April 1
Purchased By: Logging on to Travelocity.com
Round Trip Fare: $269

Passenger John Smith
Seat 22A
Purchase Date: April 1
Purchased By:Logging on to Hotwire.com
Round Trip Fare: $239

Same flight, same day, same class, same size seat, same stupid bag of pretzels, but there’s a considerable disparity on the fare that the four passengers paid simply because of how they purchased their tickets.

How much does it cost to transport one man and his stuff from LAX to JFK on May 1? Is it $239? Is it $319? Is it more? Does the difference between the service/size of seat/better booze/better movie between coach and first class really cost 70% more per passenger to provide? (70% being the difference between the coach and first class fares that DanielWithrow found on Yahoo travel in his test.) The fact is that we don’t know, we have no way of determining if the fare we’re being charged is objectively realistic or appropriate because there is no bottom line.

It’s not an apt comparison. With a car, you’re not simply paying for additional space, you’re paying for the additional materials needed to make a car with additional space.

If airlines could decide what exactly we’re paying for when we buy a ticket, then the “pay more for more space” premise might hold water. But since we’re clearly paying for something other than space or passage, since the prices do not have a set point from either perspective, there’s no way to say that it should simply be a matter of “use more space, pay more fare.”

It occurred to me that no one would ever put forth that argument when it comes to public transportation where the scenario is even more unfair – if the “pay for the space you use” concept were applied, think of how much more you’d pay if you got a seat when people were forced to stand? People wanting to save money would crowd into “standing only” cars that had no seats the same way air travellers cram into coach class now. Then the argument would be over the length of the handstraps and how there was an inherent discrimination against the short because they couldn’t reach them. It’d be a nightmare.

249

I must be reading this wrong. Southwest is the airline (and maybe the only airline) that first proposed charging obese people for an extra seat. I can only imagine it was partly in response to customer complaints.

250

and

Ah, quit you’re bithchin’ – what it costs you in tee-shirts and extra airfares you save on your grocery bill.

Vanilla Toast, I have no axe to grind here, and certainly I have no interest in calling you a liar, but unless you’re sat in the gym watching everyone else burn off the calories surely you’re estimate of your calorific intake has to be way off?

Added for general interest only:
Stumbling around the intermaweb I found this

251

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MeanOldLady *
**Well right on, Get Some. It’s nice to see that you’re not, like, a complete moronic jackass or anything.

Thanks for noticing. Would you like a cup? Well then, come GET SOME. :wink:

252

Strange place to start, The Pit, Get Some.

There’s a whole world of wisdom and/or bollocks out there you know?

253

No. Never noticed. Thanks for noticing though.

254

From a very frequent flyer here - A rather easy solution to this is to fly late at night. My company has American Expresss as our travel agent. It’s very easy to set up a profile with them so they know that I always will prefer to fly out late. In my experience, the flight I take is less full than that of my co-workers. This lessens the chance of sitting beside a drunk, a non-stop talker, a crying child, an obese person, or hell, anyone for that matter.

Also, pay great attention to the flight attendants. It’s rather easy to tell by their body language when everyone (or almost everyone) is on board. Trust me, if there is room, they couldn’t care less where you get up and move to.

Absolute last resort - If there happens to be someone next to you that you absolutely can’t sit next to, get up, tell a flight attendant that you are ill and walk off.

I guess that the only flaw in my plan is that flying at night also lessens the chances of being seated to a supermodel…

255

Yeah, I would hate to have missed all those times I sat next to a supermodel in Coach.

256

Maybe you are now, but before you were claiming that “all other things are not equal, and never will be equal so long as there is a range of different fares depending on who you are and when and how you buy your ticket. It’s easy to say “all other things being equal” but that’s not reality.” You seemed to be arguing this so that you could deny that wider seats cost more money, an absurd argument. When I showed you that all things COULD be equal, you respond with a bizarre counterexample, in effect saying, “Well, sure, all things were equal in YOUR example, but here’s an example in which all things AREN’T equal!”

So what?

So what? Airlines charge what the market will bear, not what they consider to be a “fair” price. How is it possibly relevant whether it costs 70% more to provide business-class service? All that matters is whether the airlines can fill the seats at that rate. If they can’t, they’ll lower the rate (probably raising the rates of the cheap tickets at the same time – that’s where the harm to me comes in).

A recap:

  1. Airlines sell the tickets that they think will make them the most money.
  2. Apparently, enough people would rather have teeny seats and cheap tickets that the airlines have remodeled their planes to accommodate this form of travel.
  3. Folks who want big seats can still get them, as long as they’re willing to pay extra for the privilege.
  4. Some folks want big seats but don’t want to pay extra – or at least, they want the cost of big seats to be spread out amongst everyone equally, including those of us that don’t want big seats.
  5. Some folks who want a big seat will instead buy a small seat, knowing ahead of time that they’ll end up using part of the seat of their neighbor. They seem to think that they’re blameless for using up their neighbor’s seat, that even though they could have purchased a bigger seat, their neighbor should blame the airline for offering both small and big seats.
  6. Those people are wrong.

Daniel

257

FTR, I don’t think (outside of a few jackasses using terms like “fattie”) that this is a fat bashing thread.

And I’d like to discuss a few pros and cons. I’d like to get your take on similar issues.

Should someone with a seeing-eye dog pay extra? The animal certainly takes up extra space.

How 'bout someone in a wheelchair?

An oxygen tank?

I’m gonna guess your answer is “no”. Most civilized countries and people (even Republicans like me) feel that society as a whole should help defray at least some of the expenses that the handicapped have to bear. Reasonable accomidations and all.

“But wait!” I hear some people cry “Fat!=Handicapped! All they have to do is eat less and excercize more.”

I don’t know if that includes you Coldie, but certainly some in this thread have said just exactly that.

So…would they (or you?) say the same thing about alcoholics? “All they have to do is stop guzzling booze.”

What about diabetics? “For at least some of 'em, it’s their own damn fault for having a bad diet.”

Hell, some handicapped people did it to themselves, look at Chris Reeve. He was, what? playing polo or somesuch damnfoolishness?

I think there’s a reasonable discussion to be had about whether overweight falls inside the “handicapped” umbrella, but tossing out the glib “So just diet and exercise and lose some weight” stuff (not that you in particular are) isn’t helping the discussion. It’s not that easy and unless you’d go to the alcoholic and say “So just stop drinking, rummy”, it’s pretty damned hypocritical to say the same thing to overweight people.

Fenris

258

Fenris, all of your points have been discussed already. Alcohol is a physically addictive substance, food isn’t. People who were paralyzed playing Polo didn’t become handicapped intentionally they were in a freak accident.

The question that remains is what portion of the obese population is genuinely handicapped, and how do you separate the people suffering from a condition beyond their control from the people who aren’t. Should the airlines or the government subsidize the lifestyle of someone who is just plain and simple fat?

259

Uh-huh. So in your opinion, most overweight people intentionally set out to become fat?

And as for alcohol being “physically addictive”, it’s certainly psychologically addictive (which does NOT diminish the power of the addiction), but physically? Bull. Most people can have a glass of wine without becoming an alcoholic. The vast majority of people cannot say the same thing for, say, heroin which is physically addictive. Most alcoholics do not suffer life-threating symptoms when they stop drinking. The same cannot be said for heroin.

Look, your argument boils down to the fact that you think it’s easy to lose weight, so anyone who doesn’t is lazy. You don’t quite come out and say it, but your prejudices are obvious.

Fenris

260

No, you’ve boiled my argument down to that because it’s easy to. I don’t come right out and say that because I don’t think that. What I do think is that there is a group of people who are fat because of physical or psychological conditions deserving of accommodation and a group that is just fat, due to laziness, apathy, choice, or whatever I don’t care. I think you know who I’m talking about, and I certainly do because that use to be me.

My question has been and remains which is the majority group, and how do you accommodate those with a disorder without supporting or worse, encouraging those that don’t.