Your favorite book into film

No need to take this to the Pit, Yondan, unless that’s what you want. I was intending to engage in an intellectual dicussion.

1.) Sexuality – The big H had no problem with embracing sexuality, or in portraying his characters as sexually active and pro-sex. In fact, I complain in another thread that his female characters are too unbelievable, and it’s partly because of their extremely high and easy sex drive – not that I don’t thoink women are as pro-sex as men, but because his women too often rsemble male sex fantasies rather than real people.

No, the problem is that Heinlein had a very definite sexual structure in mind, and that required a very disciplined sexual separation in the armed forces, with ritualized behavior between the when on active duty that the movie tossed out the window.

2.) Military Stupidity – Heinlein was an active Navy man before WWII and a reservist the rest of his life. His second wife as military, too. Although he clearly thought that there could be stupidity in the military (stupidity is ubiquitous), he didn’t feel the military was inrinsically dumb an made consistently stupid policies. Bt the movies seems to show a military that is consistently and criminally stupid and selfserving. I can understand the movie’s doing away with the body armor (It lets you show the actrs emoting, smething hard to do in a metal can. Aso, it givs you an imression of danger and menace when they’re o the battlefield – if you show the soldiers wrapped up in their own private tanks it’s ard to feel that sense. Finally, they didnt need still more CGI effects hadaches.) But it doesn’t make any sense to then throw such poorly protected, highly trained and expensively equipped soldiers again verwhelming hordes of enemy soldiers th don’t cost the enemy anything at all. That sort of calls for carpet bombing. They d this at one point in the film, but they don’t do it enough. And what was the point of such flimsy, open forts? Or sending more soldiers into them once they fail? Or the lack of aerial support (They don’t have any!) Or the criminl stupidity of that over-crowded space-drop barrage in when they attack the planet?

3.) But the worst offense is Heinlein’s mind-set of the military and the government. They re shown as deliberately choosing to ignore any sort of non-military solution or settlement (this is, in fact, the point of Joe Haldeman’s book The Forever War, which has always seemed to me to be the post-Vietnam answer to Starship Troopers. And if Verhoeven and company wanted to tell that story, they should’ve bought the rights to that book.). The soldiers and the leaders are driven bythoughts of revenge and visceral emotio, rather than rational thought. Read the book again, that’s the diametric opposite of Heinlein’s ideal military. The leadership’s lack of thought for the footsoldier is also directly against sections in the book that explicitly show the leader’s need to consider their soldier’s best interests. Finally, there is a considered and deliberate tendency to assciate the military with the worst sort of fascism – those nazi-like uniforms, attitudes, and grey and black uniforms are very deliberate invocation of the Nazis. If you could ever doubt such a thing (It’s incredibly heavy-handed symbolism), Verhoeven dispels any doubts on the DVD commentary. Yet Heinlein’s political system in the book is neither fascist nr military. It’s ne that has never been tried, ad one which Heinlein depicts as a plausible development from a real historical possibility. Heinlein has “constructed” lots of posible political systems in his books (in most of them, in fact, although they’re uncommonly heavy in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and ** Expanded Universe**), but that doesn’t mean he advocates any of these. Nevertheless, I’ve always felt that thi one was closest to his own feelings. The system shown in the film most certainly would not have been.
By th way, this point has been argued a lot on the SDMB. Do a search through past columns (and you don’t hav to go that ar into the past), and you’ll find plenty of arguments about ST. Almost all of it condemnng the film as a very poor interpretation of Heinlein’s book.

No need to take this to the Pit, Yondan, unless that’s what you want. I was intending to engage in an intellectual dicussion.

1.) Sexuality – The big H had no problem with embracing sexuality, or in portraying his characters as sexually active and pro-sex. In fact, I complain in another thread that his female characters are too unbelievable, and it’s partly because of their extremely high and easy sex drive – not that I don’t thoink women are as pro-sex as men, but because his women too often rsemble male sex fantasies rather than real people.

No, the problem is that Heinlein had a very definite sexual structure in mind, and that required a very disciplined sexual separation in the armed forces, with ritualized behavior between the when on active duty that the movie tossed out the window.

2.) Military Stupidity – Heinlein was an active Navy man before WWII and a reservist the rest of his life. His second wife as military, too. Although he clearly thought that there could be stupidity in the military (stupidity is ubiquitous), he didn’t feel the military was inrinsically dumb an made consistently stupid policies. Bt the movies seems to show a military that is consistently and criminally stupid and selfserving. I can understand the movie’s doing away with the body armor (It lets you show the actrs emoting, smething hard to do in a metal can. Aso, it givs you an imression of danger and menace when they’re o the battlefield – if you show the soldiers wrapped up in their own private tanks it’s ard to feel that sense. Finally, they didnt need still more CGI effects hadaches.) But it doesn’t make any sense to then throw such poorly protected, highly trained and expensively equipped soldiers again verwhelming hordes of enemy soldiers th don’t cost the enemy anything at all. That sort of calls for carpet bombing. They d this at one point in the film, but they don’t do it enough. And what was the point of such flimsy, open forts? Or sending more soldiers into them once they fail? Or the lack of aerial support (They don’t have any!) Or the criminl stupidity of that over-crowded space-drop barrage in when they attack the planet?

3.) But the worst offense is Heinlein’s mind-set of the military and the government. They re shown as deliberately choosing to ignore any sort of non-military solution or settlement (this is, in fact, the point of Joe Haldeman’s book The Forever War, which has always seemed to me to be the post-Vietnam answer to Starship Troopers. And if Verhoeven and company wanted to tell that story, they should’ve bought the rights to that book.). The soldiers and the leaders are driven bythoughts of revenge and visceral emotio, rather than rational thought. Read the book again, that’s the diametric opposite of Heinlein’s ideal military. The leadership’s lack of thought for the footsoldier is also directly against sections in the book that explicitly show the leader’s need to consider their soldier’s best interests. Finally, there is a considered and deliberate tendency to assciate the military with the worst sort of fascism – those nazi-like uniforms, attitudes, and grey and black uniforms are very deliberate invocation of the Nazis. If you could ever doubt such a thing (It’s incredibly heavy-handed symbolism), Verhoeven dispels any doubts on the DVD commentary. Yet Heinlein’s political system in the book is neither fascist nr military. It’s ne that has never been tried, ad one which Heinlein depicts as a plausible development from a real historical possibility. Heinlein has “constructed” lots of posible political systems in his books (in most of them, in fact, although they’re uncommonly heavy in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and ** Expanded Universe**), but that doesn’t mean he advocates any of these. Nevertheless, I’ve always felt that thi one was closest to his own feelings. The system shown in the film most certainly would not have been.
By th way, this point has been argued a lot on the SDMB. Do a search through past threads (and you don’t have to go that far into the past), and you’ll find plenty of arguments about ST. Almost all of it condemnng the film as a very poor interpretation of Heinlein’s book.

Yikes, Cal… we GOT it already! :slight_smile:
Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

Two words: Fight Club

OK, OK, one more: Misery

One comes to mind that hasn’t already been mentioned: High Fidelity.

I was reluctant to see it because I didn’t think they could maintain Nick Hornby’s voice, but I figured if anyone could do it, it would be Cusack. They moved it from London to Chicago and cut a bunch of detail, but it captured the flavor of the book completely. They had to break the fourth wall quite a bit to handle the long internal dialogs, but it worked.

I agree that The Maltese Falcon was better as a film than a book; I’d say this was primarily due to casting (esp. Bogart and Greenstreet). Sam Spade was a more well-thought-out character in the movie (again, this might have been Bogie’s influence).

On a similar note, The Thin Man worked about as well on film as in print, but the film also generated a couple of excellent sequels (before Hammett left and they degenerated).

Another good adaptation was Robert Penn Warren’s All the King’s Men. The film never would have been able to do justice to the book, so they lopped off all the sub-texts and psychology and just told a good story.

–Cliffy

ON a similar note, the BBC adaptation of Jane Austen’s Pride and Predjudice is a version that is very true to the book. Of course, they had 5 hours of film to adapt a book that is not particularly long so they had plenty of time to interpret the book. I’m not sure that I would call this my favourite book, but it’s definitely my “comfort” book… if I’m stressed or sick it’s the one I turn to to make me feel better.

etc.

Hmm. Ok, I buy that.

Not as sure about this. I didn’t see anyone humpin while on duty in the movie, and the coed shower scene was quite interesting in how it showed a distinct egalitarianism in exposing both male and female forms. Very unusual in american fims, and something RAH would have appreciated, I think.

Again, hmm. It’s been a while, but doesn’t something similar happen in the book? Wasn’t there a gross miscalculation of the Bugs’ capabilities? As I recall, whole planets were lost in the book.

I think I agree with this, particularly in regards to the training camp scenes, which I thought twisted Heilein’s vision of highly dedicated drill instructors who, in demonstrating their combat superiority had no difficulty with inflicting some damage, but were certainly not going to throw knives into their recruits’ hands.

On the other hand, I think the movie does a rather good job of showing Rico’s transformation from a rather shallow kid into one who really understands and projects Heinlein’s vision of civic responsibility. (I’m thinking of Diz’s burial scene.)

On the one hand, I agree with this, in that I am sure RAH would never have intentionally advocated Nazism.

On the other hand, I have no trouble with the idea that Verhoeven was not trying to present Heilein’s vision, so much as he was his own take on what Heinlein was trying to develop. Now, I have enjoyed the book greatly over the years, but as I have gotten older, I have come to realize that there are very good reason for NOT letting the military have the final Executive power, in the way Heinlein presents. That is simply too much power concentrated in one place. And it is a militaristic system when full citizenship is only granted to those who pass through the filter of the military’s selection and training process. Even if the full benefits of franchise cannot be exercised until after the completion of one’s tour, the fact remains that every single person who votes has had to go through an incredibly harsh and selective ordeal.

If only humanity could really operate such a militaristic system in the way RAH describes, with the fairness and highmindedness that he idealizes… but of course there is no way that any kind of political integrity could really survive. Do you really think that, once such a selection and training process is established, that anyone who did not espouse the right politics would make through, no matter how good they were at soldiering physically? I have no doubt that such a system could not possibly help but become a terrible force for the perpetuation of a singular political perspective.

I think this is what makes Verhoeven’s film really interesting, (aside from the action, that is) his fascist symbolism is so blatantly overt, so over the top, even, that he is clearly satirizing the system. And yet he succeeds in making the whole drive for racial survival and purity really compelling. Of course, it doesn’t hurt when all the actors are drop-dead gorgeous, but the fact that he effectively satirizes and idealizes one of the most dangerous impulses in the human heart strikes me as brilliant.

I guess, finally, I come away with the impression that PV was not trying to represent RAH, so much as draw from him and comment on his ideas. And I guess I agree. I really love most of RAH’s writing, but I think that the political vision he presents in ST’s is very, very naive. And yet the book has a powerful appeal. I think this ambiguity is brought out quite well in the movie, although with a very different result. This difference provides a rich ground for discussion, which, to my mind is some of the highest praise a film interpretation of a book can have.