Your kid is being Bullied on the bus - Pop him in the nose or talk it out?

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=Leaper]
It’s interesting that threads like this always concentrate on physical harassment. Maybe because it’s more immediate and brutal, and maybe because recommending physical retaliation is more clear in that case. I doubt anyone on this thread would recommend it for harassment that does not involve any physical component at all, and is thus much harder to deal with. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)
[/QUOTE]

Well, I wouldn’t call verbal harrasment bullying, I would call it verbal harrasment. It can be just as bad, of course. For that, you just have to develop a thick skin. Laugh it off, turn it around on the harrasser if you can, or learn to truly ignore it - not just pretending you didn’t hear, but really not allowing it to bother you at your core. Basically, this is part of developing a strong sense of self. Other people can only affect you if you allow it.

82

I usually was not on the bullies’ radar much. I knew how to avoid them, and didn’t give much of a shit what people who kowtowed to the bullies’ physical prowess thought about it.

Then there was the time, in JH or HS, I forget, that my usually unlocked house was locked, and I didn’t have the key with me. I sat on my front porch, believing someone was coming home soon. The local degenerate inmate-to-be, who lived down the street, walked by, and came up my driveway. He stood there making threats. He noticed my hand clenched by my side, and dared me to hit him. As he was easily twice my size or larger, and my only MA at the time was judo, I didn’t. I simpky stared at him, making no move whatsoever, with a complete poker face, and he eventually went away without incident. That’s the last I ever was bothered by anyone, other than people calling me weird, which, as I mentioned, I didn’t give a shit about from people whose brains only worked that well.

The amount and type of MA that the nephew has learned by age seven is likely too limited and too formalized to do him much good in a street fight.

Any key to deflecting a bully is to make the result of their bullying some other, less desirable outcome than the result they expected. The expected outcome is for the victim to be scared, which somehow satisfies the miserable shit, or for the victim to seek higher authority, which invites the bully to turn to ridicule. Hitting back is always a fallback, but the drawbacks to that are a) that the nephew may get beat up, or b) the nephew may beat up the bully, leading the bully to seek weaker prey, increasing the likelihood of a) for the next victim to try and fight back, with the result that the fight back option’s usefulness peters out in a closed system, and you don’t know where this particular bully is at in the cycle. Still it’s an option, and definitely one whose preparation will give the nephew the sort of self-confidence that may turn bullies’ attention elsewhere.

Another option is to pre-emptively bring ridicule on the bully. Think of the setting: a public school bus, which means the bully is attempting to some extent to not attract the attention of the bus driver or other students. So the next time the bully sidles up to the nephew, he can feign surpise and shout out for all to hear: “Eeew! Why are you touching your dinky like that?”

My wife suggests bringing a bag of dogshit on board one day and smashing it in the bully’s face.

Just a thought.

83

This is going to sound almost like trolling, so let me give a disclaimer first…

DISCLAIMER: The following won’t always work in the real world. Other options are often better (particularly running to an adult).
Now then…

I taught my son never to throw the first punch, but to defend himself with an adequate level of violence if he is in danger. I further told him that if he gets in trouble for it, I’d be up at the school tearing the teachers new arseholes. Anyway, school is a nasty, violent place that is in many ways amazing that our society subjects children to. Contrary to what kids are tols, adult life is MUCH easier than school life. Imagine, for example, going to work in an office job and being tripped up as you walk down the hall. You can’t, right? You’d have the cops on them ASAP. School is like prison. And just like prison, the best advice is: YOU ARE GOING TO BE HERE FOR YEARS, SO THE FIRST TIME YOU ARE BULLIED, BELT THE SNOT OUT OF THE GUY. Even if you come off worse, a bloody nose will heal, and you won’t have years of misery and being pushed around.

Fight back and fight back hard.

84

[QUOTE=Leaper]
It’s interesting that threads like this always concentrate on physical harassment. Maybe because it’s more immediate and brutal, and maybe because recommending physical retaliation is more clear in that case. I doubt anyone on this thread would recommend it for harassment that does not involve any physical component at all, and is thus much harder to deal with. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)
[/QUOTE]

I think the general answer to any sort of harassment is to stand up for yourself and show that you’re not having any of it. But that’s a lot easier done by physical violence. I also feel that most kids who are at the age that they’re being bullied probably aren’t mature enough to reach the ‘screw you, I don’t care’ stage. I started being picked on when I was ten, and I probably hit that stage around the age of 14, by which point most of it had stopped (although I still have no idea what caused the bantam girls’ softball team to dub me ‘Superstar’).

85

[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
And just like prison, the best advice is: YOU ARE GOING TO BE HERE FOR YEARS, SO THE FIRST TIME YOU ARE BULLIED, BELT THE SNOT OUT OF THE GUY. Even if you come off worse, a bloody nose will heal, and you won’t have years of misery and being pushed around.

Fight back and fight back hard.
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I have always shied away from the using prison as an example but I have heard that you are right. The only two people I know who have served time told me that you attack the first person who looks at you the wrong way or says the wrong thing to you. Both concede that they didn’t get off scott free but they were never seen as potential targets.

86

[QUOTE=Jayn_Newell]
I think the general answer to any sort of harassment is to stand up for yourself and show that you’re not having any of it. But that’s a lot easier done by physical violence. I also feel that most kids who are at the age that they’re being bullied probably aren’t mature enough to reach the ‘screw you, I don’t care’ stage. I started being picked on when I was ten, and I probably hit that stage around the age of 14, by which point most of it had stopped .
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What you describe was similar to my older son’s experience.
For him it was sort of a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” situation.

Everything was fine with him until about 5th grade, the kids he’d hung out with since kindergarten turned on him, and the verbal harassment began, peaking at around age 12. I think it began as competition for the attentions of the coolest, most popular boy, then simply became habit, then a feud. They would throw stuff at him on the school bus and alternately exclude him and harrass him.
There were about 5 of them, with two guys being the worst offenders.
It escalated into shoving matches; it got to the point where I contacted one boy’s parents (with the full cooperation of my own son).
Interestingly, during our talk, the parents reminded their son of how he used to feel when So-and-So (another boy we knew) used to pick on him.
The situation was briefly neutralized but was still there.
This is partly why my son chose a different high school to attend–all the golden boys went to our neighborhood school, my son chose another.
The verbal harrassment continued sporadically at rival soccer games, and in a way, that was almost uglier. During free kicks at more than one game, they chanted his name with “Sucks” after it.
These were children of the movers and shakers of our city. :rolleyes:
However, my son grew physically and emotionally, made new friends and while I am sure there are scars, the worst was over by sophomore year.
He mentioned seeing some of these guys at college parties, and how they were friendly and polite, as if nothing had ever happened.
“They grew up,” he said.

87

Don’t react with violence, be proactive with it. If you announce “Stop or I’ll slug you!” every single time, you are putting the ball precisely in the bully’s court. What you need to do is respond in kind. If the bully has a history of physically harassing you, the next time you sit next to him, elbow him in the solar plexus. If he is engaging in generalized social harassment, snatch his backpack and throw it into the dumpster.

In short, the simplest way to deal with bullies is to be a better bully. Bullies do what they do because it is effective at getting to someone. You can either try to ignore it (which doesn’t provide them any incentive to stop), or you can use this effective tool on one who richly deserves it.

Also, I’d advise avoiding blows to the head as a general rule. Not only is there much increased risk of permanent injury, you’ll be more likely to leave marks, which is a bad thing when it comes to comparing notes in front of authority.

I have one situation-specific piece of advice dealing with social bullying. Had to deal with one particularly odious boy in high school who called me gay incessantly.
The teacher was useless, so I decided that if harassment was accepted behavior, I wanted in on this. And the next time he called me gay, I walked up and kissed him full on the lips. Needless to say, he didn’t talk to me or look at me ever again.

88

It would be wonderful to say that all these problems can be solved by talking it out and everything. But in my experience… it never did. What worked for me was kicking the bully in the nuts, then climbing on his back and just pounding him as he flailed around trying to get me off. We both got suspended, and he learned not to pick on little girls, because we fight dirty.

No matter what, you can’t tell a kid to get one good punch in and the fight will be over. Even if you can’t fight really well, you’ve got to surprise them with your first hit, and then follow it up by flailing so hard that they can’t get near you without bruises. You just keep swinging until they stop trying to hit you or someone pulls you off.

89

Sorry to jump on the “pound the little shit” bandwagon but talking it out doesn’t do anything most of the time. You need a modicum of maturity for that to work. The kid’s seven. Fights at that age are rarely that dangerous. It’s better to get a handle on confrontation now than have no idea how to deal with it when he gets older. Sometimes, the simple act of confronting a bully will finish it.

Most of these things have no real reason for starting, so there’s nothing to fix through conversation. Getting a conference together does nothing except make the adults feel better about themselves while the kids haven’t resolved the core issue: social standing. Often, all that happens from that point is that the bullied kid gets a reputation for calling in the authorities, which makes him or her weak, which makes for a bigger target.

The “pecking order” is behavior that’s partly hardwired. Bullies don’t have to use violence to enforce their place in the hierarchy, they choose to use it in lieu of other avenues to standing. I like the five-step escalating response posted earlier. Following through on step 5 is essential. Never bluff. Always do what you say you will or the escalation is useless.

I agree with an earlier poster; most of the time you shouldn’t start a fight, but if you fight, you finish it. Violence does not lend itself well to half measures. You hurt them and you keep hurting them until they stop fighting, submit, or run away. The shoving matches are often a way to feel out how you’ll respond to actual violence. They’re working up to more. Don’t let them. The very first attempt to shove you or make any kind of physical contact should be your cue to go absolutely ape-shit. With luck, the element of surprise will allow you to make them feel dominated without much need for causing real harm.

If you do have to seriously hurt one or more of them to make them stop, the surprise still works to your advantage, especially if there is a group of bullies and not just one or two. Group situations are always dangerous, as in someone is probably going to the hospital dangerous. Sturmhauke, for example, was very lucky. I was lucky in one of my first serious fights, when it was three future juvie-bound gang-bangers and one undersized me. I was also blessed with good reaction time and a young gymnast’s physique, or I might have gotten seriously pounded even before a teacher could break it up.

I’m probably making this sound a little more serious than most because I’ve been in a couple of life-threatening confrontations in my life. It changes your perspective on violence a little. Those times were mostly not related to bullying, but it colors the way I think about all violent encounters now. Handling a fight in the way I described above increases your chances of not having a serious problem, and paradoxically might even reduce the level of violence you need to use to finish it.

I will definitely be teaching my kids both how to defuse confrontations before they turn into physical violence, and how to make sure that if it does come to any kind of serious fighting, the other kid will need a trip to the hospital before mine will.

90

[QUOTE=Count Blucher]
When my eldest son came to me and said he’d been picked on repeatedly, I finally gave in on something he had wanted but was expensive: Karate classes. He’s been in it less than a year, but he has earned a belt and his self-confidence has improved tremendously. Also, those ‘being picked on’ incidents seem to have almost gone away. No, he isn’t playing Bully, its just that the Bullies from before have moved on to easier pickings.
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And that is the biggest benefit of martial arts training: self-confidence. Bullies profile for potential targets. They choose the ones to pick on where they think they can get away with it. They don’t target confident people.

And if they do, the student has the skills to enforce his telling the bully to lay off.

91

I chimed in earlier (first response, do the right thing and all that). I was away from my PC for the weekend - sorry for the delay. I was out kicking some asses in my neighborhood . I was arrested and jailed for homicide. I am out on bail now. My wife and mother had to put the homes up as bail and clear out my savings for a retainer to get a lawyer. Hey, I was just defending myself!!

I added the first response to this thread. I suggested doing the right thing. I was vague. I also said my son was a bully when he started school. He was a kindergartner kicking the ass of a second grader. Said second grader thought his job as a second grader was to torture my son.

My son was labeled a bully when he was in fact defending himself. My son was smashing the second grader’s head into the gym floor repeatedly after the second grader taunted him and headbutted him.

Imagining my son killing this second grader was NOT a stretch by ANY MEANS. Further, the other parents were considering filing suit, but the school principal (Catholic School) convinced them not to, but they scurried off to a doctor and were concerned about nueroligical problems and such. Waiting for the lawsuit that never came: Stress on levels I care not to discuss.

I am one of the least PC people around. Many of you, I would actually like to kick your asses, and could probably kill quite a few of you. My son could have killed that little boy. Because I actually act civily and got my son to understand that even though he was taunted/headbutted, he still should not have done something physical, we are all safe and happy in our home. My son shows great restraint, and has done the right thing ever since: Tell an adult and such.

So, PC sucks, and defending one’s self is necessary at times, but I might have been less than 30-seconds from having a son accused of murder, labeled a bully and spotlighted on numerous news programs.

It is a dangerously thin line.

92

Philster, you are the last hope that public education has. I understand the feelings of the others, but they are tearing the system apart. The violence, disempowered teachers, irrational requirements and ineffective administrators have produced one overwhelming sucking sound that drowns out everything else.

Don’t tell the seven year old nephew to fight back, for heaven’s sake. Tell him to tell the bus driver. Tell his parents to tell the principal. If they’ve done this already, tell them to tell the principal that the problem continues and that if the school cannot protect their son while he is under their care, there will be consequences.

Also, principals hate bad publicity for their schools. Threaten to go to the next level above the principal – or even worse, threaten to go to the police with assault charges or to talk to the newspapers about a story on school bus assaults for this school.

As a general rule, the teachers and the parents need to present a united front. That is best for the student. Any disagreements with the teachers or the principals should be handled without the child knowing about it. I never knew how many battles my parents fought for me until long after I graduated. If I had known, the teachers would have had little control over me.

So if you tell you children that you’ll “tear those teachers a new arsehole” under any circumstances, you have lowered the respect that your child might have for that teacher. You could say instead, “Don’t worry about it. I will take care of it.”

That’s why you’re educated and they’re not.

:rolleyes:

…unless you’re a teacher expected to break up a fight, to enforce school rules against fighting, and to deal with parents who want “to tear you a new arsehole” for enforcing those rules.

93

Is there evidence that being bullied is really as big a deal in the long run as some here are saying?

I was bullied a bit all throughout my school years. (Probably not as severely as many of the stories here, though.) I never faught back.

I wasn’t happy about this, of course. But still, I had plenty of friends, plenty of self respect, and I never give it a second thought today (ten years later).

I’ve got a 1.5 year old kid, and I sometimes worry about what to tell him if he gets bullied. I think I ended up kind of lucky–Being a softspoken, pretty wimpy, kind of socially unintelligent kid, I should have been severely targeted. But as it turned out, most of the bullying that happened to me was pretty minor. That means if my kid is actually bullied, I have no idea what it’s like for him and this makes any advice I might give feel (to me) suspect.

I’ve comforted myself by telling myself being bullied isn’t that big a deal. But are there studies that show otherwise?

I should note that I will never allow my kid(s) to be trapped in a school in which real violence occurs with any frequency. So that may have some effect on the likelihood and severity of any possible bullying he may have to experience, for all I know.

-FrL-

94

One more concern:

It seems to me every post here advising that the victim should fight back assumes that the victim will win the fight. That can’t be right. If I had fought any of my bullies, I am certain I would have been killed. (In one case, I’m not even sure I’m exaggerating that claim.)

So do the “fight back” people think that those of us who simply can’t hold our end in a fight are just hopeless?

-FrL-

95

[QUOTE=handsomeharry]
I just noticed that many of the punch the bully scenarios where the victim got a severe reprisal only consisted of one punch. perhaps the old wives tale could be vindicated if it were amended to something like “Punch the bully in the face until your arms are tired, or if you leave a severe scar, he will crumple like a rag doll.”
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Three prior years of Karate taught me to end fights quickly, then get away. Otherwise, who’s the bully when you can pound a weaker kid senseless? Whereas, one well-placed ridgehand to the nose was all the psychological deterrent that was needed.

From that day forward, the bully knew I could drop him with a single punch.

96

I was bullied in junior high school. Pretty badly, too. It damaged me socially and emotionally for a number of years.

I told my teachers and my parents about it. My parents contacted the teachers, and even had a meeting about it. The main bully’s parents were contacted. They didn’t care. The teachers actually said “Well, he’s moving away next year, so just survive this year and it’ll be over”.

Yeah, right.

As a result of “just surviving it”, I was bullied by the other students for the next two years as well, and was very much a socially and emotionally stunted person for a number of years thereafter.

TRUST ME: “ignoring” the bully does not stop them. It makes them more determined. Do not tell your children to ignore and the problem will go away, because it isn’t true.

Talk to the teachers and see if something can’t be done about it. Bullying is better dealt with these days than it was 15-18 years ago when I was dealing with it. If the teacher doesn’t deal with the issue to the extent that you’d like, speak to the principal. If that doesn’t work, call the school board. If that doesn’t work, use any other safe means to get your kid out of the situation. Even if it means switching schools.

But don’t forget to find out WHY your kid is being bullied. Ask your kid what the bully teases them about. Is it something fixable? Does your kid chew with his mouth open, or dress oddly, or act in a socially unacceptable way? Never hurts to check. If your kid is being a jerk at school and THAT’S why they’re bullied, make sure you fix that problem, too. Or he’ll get bullied everywhere.

Obviously, if it’s something that can’t be fixed, like his name is “Reginald Butt”, you better teach him some snappy comebacks to the inevitable comments.

97

At least in most younger kids, ignoring them really does seem to help. The bullys bully for attention. If you don’t acknowledge them, they get bored and start picking on someone else. That may or not work with older, more senselessly violent bullies.

I never had much trouble with bullies (and I’m not a big guy), but the few times I did just keeping calm did the trick. Don’t let them get to you, they’re doing it for a reaction. But don’t look meek and scared either, more like bored is what you’re looking for. Stand up to them. They don’t impress you, you’re not scared of them.

Philosophically I’m not opposed to punching the bully, but that just gets kids in so much trouble these days, a lot of schools punish both kids in the fight no matter who “started it.”

98

[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
Well, I wouldn’t call verbal harrasment bullying, I would call it verbal harrasment. It can be just as bad, of course. For that, you just have to develop a thick skin. Laugh it off, turn it around on the harrasser if you can, or learn to truly ignore it - not just pretending you didn’t hear, but really not allowing it to bother you at your core. Basically, this is part of developing a strong sense of self. Other people can only affect you if you allow it.
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This statement ignores the fact that it is extremely hard to develop a sense of self if you’re being insulted, demeaned, and degraded. Peaople don’t “get” thick skin after being harassed or bullied. They tend to get weaker. The only way to change that is to find value in yourself elsewhere. WHich is often difficult, as school takes up so much of your young life.

I was the subject of constant isolation and harassment at school. I hated myself, quite literally. Success was everything, because it was the only thing they could steal away. Actually, they did anyway, but I didn’t have much else. And I hated myself worse every time I failed, anything, anywhere, anytime, because it made me afraid they were right.

I still have emotional sore spots from it. I am still sensitive about the matter. However, these days I simply accept that anyone who fails to treat me with the proper respect is not worth thinking of, and properly belongs in the “scum” category. But turning that self-hatred in properly-directed contempt (and hopefully, one day into pity) took four years of college.

99

I think humiliation works pretty well. If you humiliate the bully they will leave you alone, usually. That’s how my sister stopped her bully (around third grade). My brother stopped his by punching him (kindergarten). Both were very effective. I never got bullied, I guess I was known as a pretty physical kid so no one wanted to take the chance.

The only time anyone ever tried it with me was the high school “tough girl” when I was freshman. I didn’t back down one inch during that first confrontation (no hitting, just intimidation tactics), so then she resorted to grabbing and shoving me from behind one day. But after that, she left me alone. I had already damaged her “tough girl” reputation enough, just by being unaffected by her crap.

100

[QUOTE=Frylock]
One more concern:

It seems to me every post here advising that the victim should fight back assumes that the victim will win the fight. That can’t be right. If I had fought any of my bullies, I am certain I would have been killed. (In one case, I’m not even sure I’m exaggerating that claim.)

So do the “fight back” people think that those of us who simply can’t hold our end in a fight are just hopeless?
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I don’t assume you’d win the fight. I gave some suggestions that would make it more likely though. I didn’t win my first serious fight in high school, the one I mentioned earlier with the three guys who were all bigger than me, I just didn’t get hurt badly.

At the time, I didn’t know most of the things I’m telling you about now. I didn’t know how to fight any more than any kid who has seen a couple of Bruce Lee movies. I just knew at some level that sooner or later they were going to get me and if I kept running away it was going to be worse. When they caught up to me in the hall (I ran at first) I realized that I was going to have to face them right then. I stopped trying to get away and dealt with that encounter. I was fast enough, and probably more than a little lucky, to dodge most of the attacks, keep them from getting behind me, and to keep any of them from catching me and holding me for the others.

I stayed on my feet, which I later found out is very, very important in a group fight, and didn’t panic. The crying and shaking came later when I was safe in my next class. I basically didn’t lay a hand on them, just dodged and pushed to get them off balance, until a teacher showed up. I think I threw maybe two punches, neither of which were very effective because I didn’t know how to punch properly and I was aiming at the faces of guys who were a head taller than me.

I think the main reason I didn’t have more trouble with later bullies (and I did have some minor encounters in the future) was that people saw me face these guys and come out of it with only a couple of scrapes and a minor bruise. I showed that I was afraid but that I would stand up to them if I had to. If I’d known then what I know now, I would have gone after and hurt the leader as much as possible, before he expected it, instead of running. I’m pretty sure I would have had zero trouble with bullies after that. The main guy and his cronies had a history already. The administrators expelled him for that fight and suspended the other two, without even any need to ask for my side of the story. I doubt I would have gotten in much trouble even if I’d hurt him back, and it would have helped with future problems.

I now know that getting into a fight always dangerous, so you go all out; you don’t hold back at all. Something as “non-threatening” as poking a finger into your chest can turn into getting your head pounded against a wall in seconds, so you don’t give him a chance to start. Even a bully who’s significantly larger than you is going to have second thoughts about trying you again if you go from zero to Wolverine in less time than it takes to read this sentence. If you don’t fight on your terms, you’ve made the choice to give him or her time to prepare, plan how to hurt you, and to pick the time and place for it to happen. You’re giving the bully all the tactical advantages. That makes it much more dangerous for you in the long run.

I don’t suggest that you technically start the fight most of the time. You can probably force them to start it by standing up to them. If insults and other social barbs aren’t cutting it, the bully will have to escalate to regain respect. If he or she is at all the physical type, the bully will—more often than not—initiate the fight by starting a shoving match, which is a way of both trying to intimidate you and to get a sense of how you’ll handle an escalation. As soon as a bully tries to touch you, it’s an attempted physical assault, both in my terms and in the eyes of the law in most places. Time to end the fight as quickly as possible.

Unless they’re very experienced with real violence, like they grew up in a gang neighborhood or something, they’re not going to be psychologically ready for skipping the usual preliminaries. You’ve forced the timing, you know what’s coming next, but the bullies don’t. By jumping directly to the end, you can catch them unprepared. Your goal is to surprise and hurt them. Even if you also get hurt (and you probably will; be ready for it) you’ll reduce your risk by doing it this way, and there will be a much lower chance of having to fight that bully ever again. Other potential bullies will be deterred also. With luck, you’ll only ever have to fight once.