Scenario: You (or your partner) has just given birth to a beautiful baby. However when you ask if it’s a boy or a girl, you get just blank stares. Nobody knows. It might be a boy, it might be a girl, but nobody knows. You have to have genetic tests done, because the genitalia are ambiguous. Days go by. The gender of the child is determined (it could be either), but the doctors want to do surgery to “correct” the “mistakes” made by nature. They may want to change your male child to a female because he is androgen insensitive and looks more feminine. They may want to do surgery to remove most of your female infant’s extremely large clitoris to make her look more normal. They may want to make your female child male because of the way her genitalia appear. They may want to do some plastic surgery on your male child because his genitalia don’t look right. Whatever the situation, they tell you the surgeries (usually plural) HAVE to be done before age 2, because they tell you the child’s sense of gender-identity is “set” by then.
Having done some reading when a friend surprised me with a story I hadn’t known about her, I think I would do nothing.
There’s a chance the child would be affected worse, for not deciding one way or the other, but there’s also a chance that the child would be worse with me either choosing the wrong sex or choosing the right one but having the subsequent surgery affect his/her sexual pleasure.
Once the child is 18, he/she can decide if surgery is right for him/her.
It wouldn’t matter what the genetic tests said, IMO, because that has nothing to with (can’t think of the correct way of saying it!) umm, mental gender. As opposed to outwardly physical gender.
Besides, I’ve heard that some doctors have suggested feminising ambiguous genitalia for the reason that “it’s easier to dig a hole than build a pole” as I read one website crudely put it. I hope that sort of thing is in the past as I wouldn’t what that as an influencing factor at all.
I think the research is still pretty sketchy on how gender identity is formed. I watched some news mag program about Brenda Riemer a few months back. He was an infant boy who had his penis injured during a circumcision operation. The doctors determined that they couldn’t reconstruct it, and instead created a vagina for him and told the parents to raise him as a girl. Even though he was raised as a girl for most of his childhood, apparently he suffered severe emotional distress, and after finding out the truth, has chosen to live as a man. This is the link I found which explains it better:
If I remember from the news mag, this case was apparently being touted as an example of how gender identity was completely psycholigically determined, rather than genetic. But it seems the research papers were misleading, and that nobody followed up to see if such a gender change actually stuck.
So, since the research seems to be really poor in this area, I generally agree with Goo. Surgically do nothing, and see what kind of gender persona the child naturally gravitates towards.
Are you seriously saying that genetics has NOTHING to do with “mental gender”. Perhaps you mean to say that a very few people have a different “mental gender” than their genetics would say. Those two statements are miles apart in substance.
Genetic testing would be the very first thing I did. If drastic surgery were req’d to “fix” things, it might make sense to wait until the child could decide. I’m guessing, though, that these types of surgeries get more difficult later in life.
I don’t know what the relationship between mental and outward physical gender is, hopefully someone else with that knowledge will pop in shortly. I thought it was a function of hormone levels within the placenta at certain developmental stages of the fetus, and therefore, usually correlated, though not always.
But, yes, I would get a genetic test, so I could pass that info onto the child when older, but I wouldn’t use the test as a basis for surgery, if that makes it clearer. The surgery would be the child’s decision, when an adult.
Problem with that: OMFG, I can’t even begin to imagine the severity of the teasing that a child with “ambiguous genitalia” would endure. Holy smokes. Which bathroom does the kid use in grade school?? They’re gonna notice. In another world, you might be able to raise a child without a gender. In this one, you can’t. You’d have to pick male or female for the kid to function. What social group does s/he fall into when young? Which gym class does s/he take? What will his/her peers think about it, as it will be obvious in the shower rooms? The practical concerns almost demand that one gender be chosen, whether by surgery or just by social indicators (mode of dress, etc.)
I think some combination of factors including biological gender, best guess as to which hormones will control, and the feasibility of the process ought to determine what to do. The transgendered and others who choose to live an ambiguous sexual lifestyle do so with full cognizance of the consequences of their decision. To force a child to live confused about it’s sexuality…well, basically you’re preventing it from having a “normal” life during the impressionable teen years, and a tough transition period thereafter. Maybe if you pick one, you pick wrong and have that problem anyways. But maybe you pick right and the kid gets to feel more normal. If you don’t pick at all, depending on the particular genital deformity, you’re setting the kid up for a traumatic time in it’s teen years and a continuing sense of being different. Being different isn’t necessarily wrong, but it’s not something I’d want to force on a kid.
Imagine yourself tomorrow waking up as the opposite gender. You could have it corrected, you could “choose” your gender in a sense, but it wouldn’t be the same. This could be the outcome of picking wrong. But it’s always the outcome if you keep the child with ambiguous sex. If you pick one or the other, you at least have a chance at giving the child a normal youth. If you pick neither, you’re dooming it to teasing, insecurity, confusion, and endless difficulties just on the hope that it will be able to choose it’s own path and settle in eventually.
(Counting down seconds before KellyM shows up…or maybe s/he’s busy with that child by now…)
I agree with RexDart that a child with no specified sexual/gender identity would be mercilessly harassed, and thus it would be imperative to ‘pick’ whichever seemed the most viable at the time. I would NOT wish for my child to grow up unable to at least tacitly identify with one gender, even if later we find that it was not the right choice. As open-minded as our societies are nowadays, there are some things that are just not accepted or understood. The ostracism that would eventuate would be far more harmful (IMHO) than any ‘mistakes’ made in gender assignment.
I would, however, inform the child of the circumstances of their birth (giving them appropriate information for their age etc) in
the hope that open ‘discourse’ (at least within the family setting) would lead to understanding any problems that will inevitably arise. Having the kid know that YOU appreciate their difficulties, and that they have the options later to change to their preferred way of life would go a long way to making this incredibly traumatic life-journey an easier one…again, IMHO. Love and understanding can overcome all sorts of obstacles…acknowledging the ‘specialness’ of such a child while allowing them the ‘freedom’ later to choose their own path would be the method I would adopt.
Actually from what I understand it is the exact opposite. Surgery later on will actually stick, but at birth it would require surgery later on even if you chose to have it done then.
Rexdart I think the answer to your questions would be “Let the kid choose”. The only real problem for the child would be the showers and that could be taken care of with a doctors note.
I think there’s also a difference between raising a child as an ambiguity, picking a sex to raise the child as and surgically altering it to fit a ‘sex’. And they’re all independent options.
When I say I would do nothing, I’m referring to doing nothing ‘surgically’. I have no idea how I’d choose what gender to raise the child as, or whether I’d choose at all. I have little knowledge of that aspect, or of child raising in general. Just wanted to point out that a method of dealing with the ambiguity is different from surgically dealing with it.
Nobody ever saw my genitalia while I was school age (except my boyfriend, by my choice) so I don’t see how that is an issue. That sort of thing can be avoided easily IMO.
I think you missed part of my point. Sure sure, you could put off the surgery itself. But the child would still have to live, at least outwardly, as one gender or another. Which shower room is it changing in, the men’s or the women’s? If it skips the showers entirely, what about the host of other things that require some gender to be identified. Which bathroom does it use at school? Is it’s square-dance partner a girl or boy? When it takes the Presidential Fitness Program in grade school, does it have to do the male number of pullups or the female number? If it likes basketball, does it play on the guy’s team or the girl’s team…ooops, there’s the showers again, guess the kid can’t play any segregated sports. What do it’s peers think it is, sexually?
Putting off the surgery wouldn’t solve the problem. The kid would still have to live as one gender or the other, and then have the added problem of not having it’s biology match up entirely with that outward identity.
Ah, but I’d go the surgical route Goo…and any ‘mistakes’ made could hopefully be dealt with when the child/adult comes to the awareness that I chose the wrong one. I’d rather that than any other scenario. And it’s not just others seeing the genitals that will make a kid acutely conscious of his/her difference.
Goo, this was from your second cite. Your websites certainly gave food for thought, but I don’t think that the argument is just about whether a baby’s genitals are too large or small. If it was just that simple, I would not intervene surgically to remedy the situation.
But in cases where the sexual identity is totally ambiguous, I agree with the assignation of one or the other at the earliest stage.
I would definately go with surgery to conform to the genetic gender as much as possible. In my view, it’s the same as any other birth defect: If any reconstructive surgery is available, go for it. If my child decides that they want to switch genders after they turn 18, that’s their choice, and I will support them in that.
My fear would be that surgery could render the child sexually insensate and that this would be a very bad things. I think I would wait and let the child decide; better that he or she has intact genitals that can be stimulated by the partner of his or her choice (even though keeping a partner might be a little more difficult for someone with very odd bits), than have reasonably normal-looking genitals that are just there for show.
Thanks for checking out the cites,Kambuckta. It is an interesting subject with plenty of food for thought, isn’t it. And for most of us, like you and I, it is largely an academic topic.
I’m not trying to say there is one ‘right’ answer to this situation. I’m sure it’s difficult for all people involved. The more information and thought, the better, even if nobody’s initial opinions/thoughts change.
Judgeing from my transgendered (people who believe their gender does not match their body) aquaintances, having to live as the wrong gender is really really not fun. Transgendered people have pretty high drug abuse and suicide rates. It’s a pretty big problem when you hate something as fundamental as your body and your social role in the world. Many transgendered people live normal happy lives, but still it is something I would never wish on anyone.
So this isn’t just a matter of “choose something and if we choose wrong, oh well”. Forceing someone to live the wrong way can have a hugely negative psychological impact. And surgically altering someone so that they resemble what you want them to be without regard to what they want to be is downright wrong. You could well be dooming them to issues that are basically unresolvable. I, for one, would be pretty upset if someone had altered my sex organs to fit some idea they have about gender. We don’t look too kindly when they do female circumcision. Why should we turn a blind eye to the same thing being done on intersex kids? This isn’t a matter of “reconstruction”. This is a matter of taking something that is perfectly functional and altering it to fit your asthetic and cultural ideals regardless of the damage that may cause.
And changing your gender at adulthood is not easy. You have to explain everything to your friends and family. When you meet someone you went to high school with, you face total rejection. You might not be able to stay in the town you grew up in. And you have years of phsycological trauma to carry with you everywhere you go.
If I had an intersex kid, I’d raise them pretty ambigious until they were school aged. Around school age, I’d let them pick what they want. I think you’d be surprised at how young people’s gender identity forms. I’ve talked to transgendered people who would put on their mother’s clothes as kidergarteners without ever knowing exactly why. Anyway, if they get it wrong, a couple of switches won’t hurt anyone in early grade school. Chances are kids will forget it- everything that young is kind of wierd anyway. The teasing that results won’t be worse than living a lifetime in the wrong body, and if worse comes to worse you can change schools.
At around high school time, I’d begin to allow the kid to explore any surgery or hormones they may want.
And the whole time, I’d pray that one day society may learn that the ways that we treat gender can be oppresive and hurt a lot of people. I’d pray that we learn to accept and understand variations and stop forceing people to fit molds that just plain don’t work for them.
My cousin’s kid is a gender ambiguous kid. I’m not sure about surgeries, but I think he’s had a few. He’s had the chromosome testing and he is a boy in that regard. He’s been raised as a boy. Because he was born very prematurely, he’s very slight of build, but appears to be male in every regard. It’s not something we ever talk about. He appears very happy and well-adjusted. He’s in college and is very bright. I think whatever they did, it worked out well for him, although I have heard horror stories. I’m just glad he’s the wonderful kid he his.