Your papers, Comrade?

I ran across this today, and I have to say I’m flabbergasted. This man was taken to jail and fined $250 for refusing to produce ID when asked to do so by a police officer. The man fought the case, and it is due in the supreme court next month.

Now, the man wasn’t driving, he was standing outside his truck (which was driven by his daughter) smoking a cigarette, so it seems to me that the officer had no reason/right to demand ID. When the man questioned Deputy Dove (the arresting officer) as to why he should produce ID Officer Dick—er, I mean Dove replies with the standard “I’m conducting an investigation…” but offers no real reason.

The officer repeats his demand for ID, Hibel (the “suspect”) refuses. Cuffs come out.

At this point, Hibel’s daughter becomes a bit emotional, can’t say that I blame her–They were apparently going to haul her dad away. Officer #2 pulls her from the truck, and slamms her face down in the dirt, sits on her. More cuffs. 17 years old, this girl.

Here is Mr Hibel’s side of the story (complete with police video)

To me, this seems like an outragous abuse of police power. Anyone disagree?

oops, I just read the sticky about discriptive thread titles. I suppose this one really isn’t very good in that respect, but I can’t seem to figure how to change it…

Just watched the video.

I think the guy could have been a little bit more accomodating and forthcoming, and probably more polite. However, I also think he is 100% correct. He was doing nothign wrong and suddenly was harassed by the cops.

Unless there is some law in Nevada that says you MUST provide ID at a police officers request (and I doubt it) he was illeagally detained by those officers.

And the rough take down of the 17 year old girl by that cop doesn’t surprise me one bit. I’ve seen worse. Anyone remeber the school incident not long ago? Cops busted in to a a SCHOOL with dogs and guns drawn, throwing kids to the ground whom (in utter shock and confusion) dared to not submit immeadiately.

Guy:- Why do you want my ID?

Cop:- Because

WTF? I that situation I’d have been arrested as well unless I knew of a law saying I had to produce ID when asked or the cop told me I had to.

I hate been told what to do especially if the given reason is because.

The guy was doing nothing wrong.

In short, it is not an “outrageous abuse of police power” to request that a person identify themselves. This, and this alone is the crux of the legal question before the Supreme Court of the United States. Not at issue is the question of whether the application of police powers in this particular case, as shown on the video, constitutes an “outrageous abuse of police power.” It is important in cases like this to avoid letting emotions be played upon by the red herring used to troll for them. If you want to get outraged at the conduct actually under question in the case before the Supreme Court, read the decision in Schmerber v. California, 384 U.S. 757 (1966)Don’t let the antisceptic treatment of the facts fool you; my Criminal Procedure professor loved to torture us on this case by challenging us to imagine the scene at the hospital where the suspect has his blood withdrawn over his objection, his arm strapped down, his body restrained, and his blood vessel “punctured,” to use the quaint term employed by Mr. Justice Black in his dissent.

But back to the case of Mr. Hiibel. If one reads the opinion of the Nevada Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Dist. Ct., 118 Nev. Adv. Op. No. 88 (12/20/2002), the only question presented in the case is, “can a person be required by law to provide identification when an officer, involved in investigation of a possible crime, requests it.” The Nevada Supreme Court found that Mr. Hiibel could be so required in a split 4-3 decision. Without going into great detail, the Court determined that the intrusion of requiring that with which we are so regularly free (our name) was minimal, and that the need for obtaining same, based upon the fact that identification is a sine qua non to determining if certain crimes are being committed, was sufficient to make requiring its provision not an unreasonable seizure, nor a violation of due process. Mr. Hiibel has appealed, and because there is dissent among the federal circuits, the Supreme Court of the United States has granted certiorari and will hear arguments. Gotta love any case which manages to obtain the personal attention of the nation’s Solicitor General.

We start our analysis with Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), wherein the Supreme Court allowed police officers, while investigating potential criminal activity, to make brief seizures of suspects, and further allowed a pat-down search during such a stop if there was reason to suspect that the person was armed. Despite the attempt of Chief Justice Warren in the opinion to focus on the search, the fact the Court allowed the stop in the first place was itself a new point of law, and such stops are now routinely called “Terry stops.”

Although the Court has had some opportunity to further flesh out the seemingly obvious companion issue, namely, can the police officer in such a stop request and require presentation of identification, there have been some statements by the Court tangential to the issue. In Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47 (1979), the Court held that an officer who did not have objective criteria substantiating his belief that the defendant was engaged in criminal behaviour could not constitutionally conduct a Terry stop. The Court was not required to answer the secondary question raised by the case as to whether the Texas statute requiring that the suspect identify himself or be subject to arrest was constitutional. In Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U.S. 420, 439 (1984), the Court parenthetically makes the assertion that a person is not obligated to respond to questions in a Terry stop, and must be released if nothing incriminating can be determined to be occurring. For this, they rely upon a statement by Justice White in his concurring opinion in Terry (see pg. 34). Finally, there was Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352, wherein the Court found unconstitutional a vagrancy law because of vagueness, and, thus, did not address the issue of whether the defendant could be required to provide identification to the officer making the stop. But that case did, in footnote 9 to the main opinion, note that citizens cannot be compelled to answer questions about unsolved criminal cases, citing the case of Davis v. Mississippi, 394 U.S. 721, 727 , n. 6 (1969).

I won’t describe the various federal circuit court cases addressing the point squarely, other than to note that they apparently fall on a divide between the Tenth Circuit and the Ninth Circuit (wow, what a shock that is…). Let’s just say that liberal Ninth Circuit opinions aren’t exactly found to be in harmonious vibe with the prevailing thought on the Supreme Court bench often(must really pain Justice Kennedy to have to listen to the comments from his fellow conservatives about how often his former circuit gets slapped down).

What I find quite interesting about the opnion from the Nevada Supreme Court is that it makes exactly zero mention of the Fifth Amendment. Not even the dissent mentions it. You know, the one about “nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, …” The Fourth Amendment isn’t in question at all, here, and no one even blinks an eye at this discrepancy.

Why no Fourth Amendment issue? The seizure was legal, under the standards ennunciated in Terry. There was no search. No search, no seizure, no Fourth Amendment. Period. Pretty “duh” it seems to me. Of course, it appears that on this issue the Tenth and Ninth Circuits have failed the “duh” test as well… Sometimes people in this area of the law tend to forget the distinctions between the various pieces of applicable constitutional text.

But the comments in Kolender and Davis referenced above deal with Fifth Amendment issues (no, Davis wasn’t a Fifth Amendment case, but footnote 6 was a Fifth Amendment reference). The issue is whether the police can compel any response out of a person. A statute that requires such a response in order to avoid arrest certainly provides coercion. If I’m not obligated to tell an officer what I know about a crime, even when I’m not the suspect, can I be obligated to tell the officer my name, when that information alone, combined with the circumstances of my stop, could result in my arrest?

Do I dare submit a guess as to result? I will. My suspicion is that this will be the first time a citizen will be compelled to provide police with information against his or her will. The current concern with terrorism, combined with the general retrenchment against the decisions of the Court in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s will cause the two middle-of-the-roaders to go with the police on this one. We’ll see.

My personal opinion? I rarely give one on legal cases, but here I will. It is a sad day in our history when you can be arrested and convicted for keeping your mouth shut.

Yeah, that’s classic, isn’t it? Iron-clad legal proof. :rolleyes:

I’ve lived in many a small town in the good ol’ US of A, and I can tell you that small-town hick cops are the worst. They become big fish in tiny ponds, and it goes to their heads. They see other cops in big cities doing ‘big cop’ stuff, they want to do ‘big cop’ stuff, but that stuff don’t happen in Moose Paw county.

“I’m conducting an investigation”. Christ what a pompous ass.

Correct answer: I’m sorry to bother you, we got a report of a possible fight, just want to make sure everyone is all right here. Is that your daugher in the car? Could you ask her to step out real quick?

<pause>

Well, no one looks to be in trouble here. You two go on about your way, no fighting, ok? Bye now, have a good day".

End of story. No one gets cuffed, and Mr. Dove doesn’t come across as Mr. Dickhead to the entire civilized world.

I agree. But an arrest when this “request” is not met? IANAL, but I would think that would constitute abuse of power. After all isn’t the nature of a “request” that declining it holds no ill? Otherwise, (IMO) it is a demand. In this case, a demand that should not have been issued.

yes… yes it is.

DSYoungEsq, thank you for the fascinating analysis. Definitely interesting territory. I think most of us would agree that, from a realistic stand point, simply whipping out his wallet and showing him his driver’s license or whatever probably would have been the easiest thing to do, and something that any one of us probably would have done without a second thought.

Doesn’t mean it’s necessarily right, of course, and while I highly doubt Mr. Hiibel was debating the various nuances of aspects of the Constitution at the time of the incident, I admire his resistance and willingness to ‘buck the system’.

I am not a lawyer by any stretch, so forgive my layman understanding and questions. But I am sure others have similiar questions, etc. - so if you could elaborate, it would be greatly appreciated.

I understand that in some cases determining the possible suspect’s name would be necessary, and as such identification could reasonably be viewed as necessary to confirm the individual was or wasn’t who he was thought to be.

But this particular case was based on a response to a domestic violence report. From the web site: “Someone saw Mimi arguing with her dad and thought it had come to blows. The witness said that he saw “a man with a black cowboy hat” who “slugged the female”. Dove was there to investigate the report”.

Clearly, no specific individual is named a suspect. Does this suggest that the ID request was unreasonble/unnecessary? If the point of the stop to begin with was to determine whether a crime had been committed, certainly checking on the female passenger would have been the first place to start.

I don’t hear the officer actually requesting the man’s name. Does this have any bearing on the case?

I am a little bit suprised that everyone thinks that the officer was being a dickhead.

He was investigating a report of a domestic dispute with possible battery and all he did was make a simple request for I.D. It would be a different case if the suspect calmy said that I did nothing wrong and I don’t have/want to show you I.D. I would be more inclined to be on his side. He didn’t though he was generally being a giant ass who appeared intoxicated and seemed like he wanted to be arrested.

The stop started off pleasant enough it seemed with the officer and suspect being polite. The suspect walked up to the officer as the officer was exiting his car and said something along the lines of how are you doing? Our car isn’t illegally parked.

The officer then said that he had a report of them fighting and asked the suspect for I.D. The suspect basically brushed the question aside saying that why should he have any and continued rambling about the car being parked fine. The officer repeated his request and the suspect offered to be arrested. The suspect repeaditly asked what he was investigating even though the office had previously stated it (domestic assault). (Interestingly enough the officer asked the suspect how he got home last night so it seems like these two had met previously and the suspect was probably intoxicated). The suspect continued to be a douchebag and saying that he didn’t break anylaws and refused to cooperate with the officer investigating the reports of a fight taking place.

Frankly this guy was just wasting the officers time and if there is a law against that he should have been arrested and fined.

The woman in the video also should have been arrested for refusing to listen to the other officer and attempting to run towards the first officer that was arresting her father. In my opinion only nessecary force was used to restrain her and the officers appeared to be very polite to her afterwards.

Is there a real Fifth Amendment issue here?

Your name doesn’t reveal the fact that you have knowledge of a crime. In this case, the Terry stop was for domestic violence; the accused’s name would not have tended to show one way or the other whether he struck his daughter or any other element of the crime of domestic violence.

It’s true that giving a name may reveal that the accused is wanted for some other crime elsewhere. Even then, it does not give the officer any evidence relating to the elements of THAT crime, does not reveal information that corroborates the elements of that crime, nor is it an admission against interest. A person’s name has no “testimonial significance,” because it does not relate to a factual assertion or disclose information protected by the Fifth Amendment.

  • Rick

Oh, I don’t deny that the guy comes across as an ornery cuss, no doubt about it. Thankfully, the law doesn’t punish you just for being a dick - or lord knows a lot of us (me included, more than likely) would have long stretches of being ve–ry careful about picking up the soap. :eek:

Nor do I think the officer should be sued just because he was being a dick. I do think, however, his dickhead-edness caused him to do something that was not right. He was being a dickhead about asking for the guy’s ID, and he shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind the ‘need to obtain relevant information’ to justify it.

Are we all clear that Nevada has a law that requires a person stopped on reasonable suspicion to identify himself to an officer?

Nevada Revised Statute (NRS) 171.123(3):

  • Rick

And the citizen declined. The officer should have said, “Thank you very much, have a good evening,” and left. No other action is justified.

There is no evidence of intoxication, and any assholishness was entirely justified when the cop illegally exceeded the bounds of his authority in demanding ID.

So maintaining your innocence to an officer makes you a douchbag?

The officer was free to leave at anytime. If anyone’s time was being wasted it was the citizen’s.

Frankly, it is incidents like this that give cops a bad name, and frequently lead to unecessary violence.

Fear Itself, your summary of the facts makes me wonder what source you are relying upon.

As I posted above, the cop did not “illegally exceed the bounds of his authority.” Nevada law provides that a person detained on reasonable suspicion of crime shall identify himself when asked to do so by an officer. The officer clearly had reasonable suspicion – a citizen reported that a female in the truck was assaulted by a male. The officer observed that the truck had left skidmarks where it stopped, suggesting that the stop had been done in an aggressive or reckless manner.

Did you not know these things?

  • Rick

Not at all.

Please explain how these circumstances met the requirements of this statute.

It seems to me the most obvious, scary thing is this: The person was REQUIRED to carry ID. You’ll notice on watching the tape that Mr. Hiibel never even said that he HAD any ID on him. How did the officer know? Would Hiibel have faced the same problems if his daughter had been driving (didn’t someone say she was?) and he had left his wallet at home? Hell, it used to be in states like PA that you didn’t even need to have your license on you when driving–you just had to be able to produce it within 3 days, IIRC. Someone there would be screwed.

This is straight out of the books of every Stalinist regime our country has ever fought and despised. The scariest thing about such regimes is not the wickedness of human beings who are willing to torture people, etc., but rather the sad willingness to follow bureaucratic procedures to their ultimate ends, however ridiculous and evil.

All of the above from the respondent’s brief.

From the Nevada Supreme Court’s opinion.

  • Rick

It seems to me, that the man was never detained, simply arrested. Had he been formaly detained (in my experence, this consists of being placed in the car, usualy not handcuffed) he would (at least in my reading of the law) THEN be required to identify himself, not before.

IMO, The ONLY reason the police should need an individual’s identification is if they are looking for someone by name. Of course, they are and should be, allowed to request any information from anyone. Any individual has that privilage. But when these requests turn into demands, we start getting things like the incedent in question: the man did nothing wrong, and the police are making demands of him. Feeling stepped on, he refuses the request.

Yes, but:

  1. “Any person so detained shall identify himself” … what does this mean? Is simply saying, “I’m Dudley Hiibel” enough? MUST someone surrender Photo ID? How many forms of ID? A valid credit card, too? Birth certificate? There’s a news flash: “Vague law leads to unpleasant situation.”

  2. The officer IS a prick, because, if you watch the video, HE NEVER EVEN ASKED THE SUSPECT FOR HIS NAME! If the stupid SOB had just said, “What’s your name, sir?”, the outcome of this situation would have been entirely different.

Funny that this subject was discussed in a recent thread Does ‘‘Papers, please’’ still apply in any modern democracies?. In that thread the legal position in the US was explained in the same way as here, but most posters seemed to be confident that you would not usually be asked for ID if you were not driving. I am aware that a single incident doesn’t belie the general proposition, so let’s hope this remains an incident.