Ah, crap. Excuse the coding, damn it.
Okay. Name the area or areas in question. You say you’ve seen them. Where are they? I live here. I would like to know where they are so that I can see them - - the miles and miles of run-down near slums - - with my very own eyes. I see blocks of such territory, but not miles and miles.
I’m saying that the national media who came down here did not give the rest of the country and the world an accurate picture of New Orleans and the neighborhoods that makeup the city.
I spent several weeks post-Katrina helping the New Orleans, New York, and Chicago fire departments protect the city. As part of that work, I’ve driven all over greater New Orleans. I’ve seen the extent of the flooding with my own eyes. At this moment, I’m looking at a map of the city that shows the flooded areas and the depth of the water in them.
Lakeview - 8 feet of water. Roughly 1.5x the size of the Upper and Lower 9th Wards put together. Mostly middle and upper middle class folks there. I work with a bunch of them.
Pontchartrain Park - 8 feet of water. Roughly the same size as the Lower 9th Ward.
Affluent New Orleans East (not to be confused with less affluent portions of the same section of town) - 8 feet of water. 2/3 the size of the Lower 9th Ward.
Old Metairie - 3 - 4 feet of water. Roughly the same size as the Lower 9th Ward.
Holly Grove - 3 - 4 feet of water. Roughly 1/2 the size of the Lower 9th Ward.
Maybe we’ll take another direct hit next year. Then you can feel a bit smug and hope that the internet jerk on the Straight Dope got just what you said he’d get and that he deserved it.
God forbid your city ever go through what we’ve gone through. We’ll gladly help you if we can, even though your town probably has some warts, just like ours.
Okay. Name the area or areas in question. You say you’ve seen them. Where are they? I live here. I would like to know where they are so that I can see them - - the miles and miles of run-down near slums - - with my very own eyes. I see blocks of such territory, but not miles and miles.
I’m saying that the national media who came down here did not give the rest of the country and the world an accurate picture of New Orleans and the neighborhoods that makeup the city.
I spent several weeks post-Katrina helping the New Orleans, New York, and Chicago fire departments protect the city. As part of that work, I’ve driven all over greater New Orleans. I’ve seen the extent of the flooding with my own eyes. At this moment, I’m looking at a map of the city that shows the flooded areas and the depth of the water in them.
Lakeview - 8 feet of water. Roughly 1.5x the size of the Upper and Lower 9th Wards put together. Mostly middle and upper middle class folks there. I work with a bunch of them.
Pontchartrain Park - 8 feet of water. Roughly the same size as the Lower 9th Ward.
Affluent New Orleans East (not to be confused with less affluent portions of the same section of town) - 8 feet of water. 2/3 the size of the Lower 9th Ward.
Old Metairie - 3 - 4 feet of water. Roughly the same size as the Lower 9th Ward.
Holly Grove - 3 - 4 feet of water. Roughly 1/2 the size of the Lower 9th Ward.
Maybe we’ll take another direct hit next year. Then you can feel a bit smug and hope that the internet jerk on the Straight Dope got just what you said he’d get and that he deserved it.
God forbid your city ever go through what we’ve gone through. We’ll gladly help you if we can, even though your town probably has some warts, just like ours.
Maybe a double post here, as my browser froze up. If so, I’ll feed the hamsters a bit extra tonight.
I think there’s another point that’s been missed here. Katrina came ashore east of N.O. and the flooding was apparently caused, primarily, by by structural failure of the dikes. Therefore the flooding was somewhat gradual. If, or should I say when, a storm of equal, or increased, intensity comes ashore west of N.O. a storm surge (much more pronounced in the north eastern quadrant of a hurricane) of 30-40 feet would overwhelm any reasonable flood control structure and result in very rapid flooding. So even if they can build a better and higher levee and restore the wetlands, it’s going to take a decade or more to accomplish, w/o any assurance that it will be adequate. Also, considering that we are in a cycle of increased hurricane activity, what are the odds that won’t destroy any future work before it’s completed?
Flooding in most of New Orleans was caused by levee failure. Post-mortem studies indicate a double-whammy. The Corps of Engineers did not design the levees properly - - they were not anchored in stable soil with deep enough sheet pilings - - and the contractors who did the work utilized sub-standard materials - - regular fill as opposed to compacted fill.
Areas east and south of the city - - St. Bernard and Plaquemines Parishes - - suffered overtopping of their levees by storm surge. It appears this was compounded by the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MR GO) that was dredged (despite vehement local opposition) in the 1960s to serve as a shipping short cut to the Gulf. The 30 foot deep shipping channel faces due east and served as a conduit for storm surge to head straight for the Industrial Canal, breach the east levee wall, and flood the Lower 9th Ward. The Mr. Go flooding was sudden and severe.
This is a concern of everyone who flooded during Katrina. Experts are looking at ways to reduce storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain (after the Mr. Go, the big problem in Katrina) from entering the city. Some suggest blocking the lake/gulf connection at the Rigolets and moving pump stations from in the city out to the Lakefront.
No, there are no guarantees that such construction could be completed before the next hurricane hits, or that it would not suffer from the same human errors in design and construction as the current system. That is why in addition to looking at these flood control measures, we’re also looking at concentrating rebuilding efforts on the areas of town above sea level, strengthening building codes to require raised houses in marginal zones, and setting aside other areas for green space and reservoirs. Other than moving everyone out of here - - a much more expensive proposition, IMHO, as everyone will have to be bought out - - there likely is no perfect solution to the situation.
Never having been there, I’m torn between “rebuild” and “cut your losses and bulldoze the place”. However, as I’ve said, I’ve never been there, and I understand that it’s a very special town and that it’s home to a lot of you, and you think differently about it.
All I do know… that mayor of yours… Australian 60 Minutes got an interview with him. Is he on drugs? I don’t mean that in the snarky, “he’s crazy” sense, but literally. The guy looked stoned.
I’m going to attach a file here that shows the flooding from Katrina. Be advised! This is a damned large file!
You can scroll up/down and left/right in order to get a good idea of the devastation. Maybe you can locate your house.
Now, how much of that area might fall into the category I might refer to as “seedy” or run-down? Well, you might need to make some reasonable instances based on what we know about New Orleans:
1- Affluent people generally don’t live near objectionable places such as stock yards, petrochemical plants, refineries, etc. So, I think you can figure out from the picture some of the areas where you might find the less desirable housing.
2- The poverty rate is quite high in New Orleans as compared to the rest of the nation as noted in this link here, which says, in part:
“The national poverty level in the United States is 12.4 percent, based on the 2000 census showing a population of 273.9 million. In Louisiana, the poverty level is 19.6 percent for the state’s 4.3 million residents. In New Orleans, the poverty rate is an astounding 27.9 percent for the city’s 468,453 residents.”
Meaning that those folks have to live somewhere, and it most likely isn’t in an upscale suburb.
-------- So --------------
Look around on that map for a while. See if you can estimate the miles of decrepit housing.
Furthermore, whether the water depth was 4 feet or 14 feet, the houses that were steeped in that septic sludge are not what I’d call acceptable housing–no matter if they dried out or not (and some probably haven’t yet due to the fact that the average humidity in NO is 76%). What wasn’t destroyed outright will probably be taken care of by mold and the ubiquitous termites in due time.
From my experience in that city, my prominent impression was that of decay. It’s damp, and it’s moldy.
I really don’t feel like going on with this much longer. You’ve made your mind up that you want to live there, fine. You’ll probably get your bail out if FEMA ever gets its head out of its ass. Whether it’s worth sinking billions to re-levee the entire city is debatable since who would want to rebuild on top of toxic land anyway? (Don’t even ask for a cite. Find it yourself. There are tons of them.)
BTW—houses on stilts might not be as viable an alternative as it seems at first glance. The subsidence problem again. I wonder if houses on pontoons is at all viable?
I’ve got to get away from this for a while. I’ve let this take up too much of my time already.
Dude. You submit a .jpg file as your evidence? Yes, we flooded, thank you very much. I have been all over New Orleans since Katrina. I’ve walked the Lower 9th Ward. I’ve helped friends deal with their flooded houses in Lakeview and Fountainbleu. I’ve been to the levee breaches. I live here. I know which neighborhoods flooded, how deep they flooded, and knew the people who lived there. And you think a .jpeg is going to convince me that someone from the Twin Cities can infer more from satellite imagery than I can from first-hand experience?
How would you like it if I uploaded a .jpeg of St. Paul and tried to tell you where your poor people live? Or how about Minneapolis? How about this: I’ll stick to discussing things I know about, you stick to discussing things you know about.
That’s your impression and you’re welcome to it. You obviously don’t like New Orleans and appear to be grasping for any possible excuse to heap your scorn on it.
I recommend you do. You’re much too worked up about the conditions in a city roughly 1,300 miles away from you.
Lots of areas will get bulldozed due to deep flooding. The news showed you the flooded areas - - roughly 75% of town took water at least 1 foot deep. The remaining 25% is above sea level, above lake level, and is back in business. I hope that you might get a chance to visit someday.
I didn’t see the interview. American Southerners speak slowly as a general rule, often making us seem a bit dim-witted. Mayor Ray grew up in a working class neighborhood of New Orleans and he’s kept his vernacular dialect intact, somewhat like a badge of honor, if you can imagine. He doesn’t want his constituents to think he’s sold out to the establishment. Put the two together and you have a guy who isn’t the most polished politician you’ll ever see. Also, depending on when the interview was conducted, he’s been working long hours every day since the storm hit. He’s probably sleep deprived.
It wasn’t the slow drawl. Quite the opposite in fact. The guy seemed a bit hyper.
Maybe I was judging him a bit harshly because obviously he would have had a lot on his mind, but he did seem to be kinda fidgety and … dunno. That said, he actually seemed to be a nice guy in the interview.
What do you want? I give you photographic evidence and you still seem to say, “Oh, it wasn’t that bad.”
Hmph.
New Orleans rather epitomizes the saying, “Nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.”
And, it ain’t as nice to visit as it once was.
Grasping? It’s a pretty easy reach, actually.
If you wanted debate, you should’ve posted somewhere else. If you ask for opinions, you’ll get opinions. It’s your problem if you’re too thin-skinned to accept them.
I’ll go ya this far: I heartily recommend that people visit New Orleans. The city can certainly use the money. Go to the French Quarter. Have a good time.
While you’re there, look around. It’s kind of eerie when you realize that, no matter where you look, you’re looking up at the water levels.
One qualification: I don’t recommend visiting New Orleans during hurricane season.
Sorry Ivorybill, I didn’t answer your OP question directly.
Here in Sydney, N.O. was headline news for a few days, with saturation coverage. Then, when it inevitably slipped to being the second or third news story, the coverage turned towards the patchy disaster relief effort. The impression I got was that the reporters weren’t portraying residents in a bad light at all, but were definitely going after the US Federal Govt for not doing much.
I don’t think I’ve heard anything about N.O. since then in the local news, but such is the nature of media anywhere.
Much the same coverage pattern here as experienced by TheLoadedDog. Last item I saw was a week ago or so, showing families returning to houses of loved ones and relating how they’d found dead bodies inside because of insufficient checks by authorities.
I think we’re aware the situation is ongoing here in NZ, but it’s dropped down from the headlines. More into current affairs territory now.
I didn’t say it wasn’t that bad. As one poster said previously, this is almost nuclear in scope.
What I did say - - to counter an error that you posted - - is that the areas that flooded weren’t exclusively poor, and that water depth wasn’t correlated with income. Some very decrepit areas stayed high and dry and million dollar mansions had floating furniture.
You have argued that point. I have rebutted. You seem to think that by sitting 1,300 miles away and looking at a picture on the internet you know more about conditions here than I do who happen to be living with them. I disagree.
This is the Straight Dope. We fight ignorance here. In some fora we fight more than others, but I’ve seen plenty of requests for cites in IMHO.
You’ve made some valid points, other things you’ve posted, well, have been ignorant. I’ve called you on them. You’ve been arumentative and condescending when called on them. I remain fresh as a daisy and calm as the center seed of a cucumber.
Any Dopers who think about heading this way are welcome to email me and I’ll do my best to help make your visit as pleasant as possible. One of the best restaurants in town - - Dick and Jenny’s on Tchoupitoulas - - has reopened. The Audubon Zoo is open this weekend. House of Blues has Dr. John on December 29th. I cannot control the humidity, but maybe I can bleach some of the mold off things before your flight gets in.
Have you looked at the picture? Do you dispute any of my inferences as listed earlier? I even said that, if the news reports were incorrect as to their statements that the poorest areas were hit hardest, then so be it. What do you want?
You’ve called. I’ve answered. You haven’t refuted.
I urge other Dopers to take up Ivorybill’s offer. They might want to bring along their own water and some extra bleach, though.
One other question. Well, maybe two…
When you’re talking about the 25% of the town that wasn’t inundated, are you talking about New Orleans proper, or the entire metro area?
Are you saying that 25% of New Orleans is above the level of Lake Pontchartrain?
His chief fault in terms of being a disaster manager is that he’s a nice guy. He doesn’t seem to be able to make a necessary, but controversial, decision that might negatively impact some people even though it would be better for everyone.
As for being fidgety, he might have been nervous knowing that he was speaking to an international audience. It’s one thing to speak to our city or state, but knowing you’re on an international stage might make for a case of the nerves.
Ice Wolf and TheLoadedDog,
I’m not too surprised to hear that coverage has dropped off. It was one thing when conditions were so crazy. Now that it’s folks with rolled up sleeves, hammers, trash cans, dumpsters, and haz mat suits, it’s not quite as compelling for television and print media.
If my geography is correct, y’all are headed into summer. I hope it’s a good one with plenty of carefree days.
What I’d like is for you to not shift arguments in the middle of a discussion.
New Orleans proper. With only isolated instances, Jefferson Parish (see if you can find it on your photo) didn’t flood. The West Bank of the river didn’t flood.
Roughly. My house is at 4 feet above sea level. At the river levee, houses are 8 - 12 feet above sea level.
You mean my argument about the poorer areas being in the lower lying areas?
Check out this cite. From the book Control of Nature, by John McPhee:
"Something like half of New Orleans is now below sea level – as much as fifteen feet. New Orleans, surrounded by levees, is emplaced between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi like a broad shallow bowl. Nowhere is New Orleans higher than the river’s natural bank. Underprivileged people live in the lower elevations, and always have. The rich – by the river – occupy the highest ground. In New Orleans, income and elevation can be correlated on a literally sliding scale: the Garden District on the highest level, Stanley Kowalski in the swamp. The Garden District and its environs are locally known as uptown.
(underline mine)
That correlates with what the news reports said were the poorer areas. Is everyone lying?
No, Rysdad, I’m lying. John McPhee, one of the finest writers anywhere, but a native of New York, and who wrote that book 18 years ago, knows more about New Orleans than I do. The CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and other news anchors, who came here from New York, LA, DC, and elsewhere, for a week or two after the storm, know more about New Orleans than I do.
After all, I only live here. Why should my local knowledge, based on several years here, based on my recent work on the ground, in the flooded neighborhoods, trump a whole bunch of out-of-town media experts?
Here’s a little tip (and I’m sorry if this challenges your carefully crafted world view): don’t believe everything you see on the Tee Vee. Don’t believe everything you read from the mainstream media. Don’t even believe everything John McPhee writes, since he’s writing to entertain you as much as educate you. Open your mind just enough to accept the possibility that these sources might not always be 100% correct, and that if a person with local knowlege has something different to say about an issue, he might just be correct.
Sorry, John. The Garden District doesn’t occupy the highest ground. That distinction belongs to the wharfs and warehouses along Tchoupitoulas Street at about 10 - 12 feet above sea level. The Garden District - - a relatively small piece of real estate bordered by Magazine Street towards the river, St. Charles Avenue towards the lake, Jackson Avenue downriver and Louisiana Avenue upriver (check your picture, Rysdad - - I’m typing slowly so you can follow along) - - ranges in elevation from 6 - 8 feet at the highest to about 2 - 4 feet at the lowest.
In contrast, Uptown (again with the picture, Rysdad), occupies the land from St. Charles at the downriver end, Claiborne avenue at the upriver end, to the river from Louisiana Avenue up to and beyond South Carrollton Avenue. It should be damn near impossible to confuse the Garden District with Uptown, but folks do it all the time. Uptown includes the University District, Irish Channel, Carrollton, and Riverbend. Ride the streetcar and you will see lots of Uptown but practically nothing of the Garden District.