Regardless of the “iie” controversy, it should be noted that in English, using “you’re welcome” as a response to “thank you” is only a little more than 100 years old. Many cultures appear to use dismissive phrases as responses to “thanks.” English “think nothing of it,” Spanish “de nada”, French “de rien,” etc. Germans respond “please” (bitte) and the Italian “prego” can also mean “please.”
In my experience most Japanese will not respond verbally to this at all. It totally depends upon who you’re “thanking.”
Someone at the corner convenience store will merely nod (maybe) and as you walk out, will shout in a loud voice (to nobody – it’s a robotic response) “Arizatozaimashtaaaaaah” just like all his/her colleagues.
If you are a foreigner, a normal Japanese will never respond with “iiee,” “Iya” (I would say more possible) and CERTAINLY not “tonedemonai” or “dou itashimashite.”
Excessive bowing will definitely take those places, or merely a rigid smile and a fervent wish for you and your foreignness to depart as quickly as possible.
Please do NOT say things like “arigatou gozaimashita” to store clerks; it’s bizarre and unnatural. Don’t even bother with “arigatou.” A simple “doumou” will be precisely what you should say and what they will expect.
To this you should expect no verbal response past perhaps a “hai” or most probably, nothing at all.
There are regional differences on this point. In Tokyo, it is indeed uncommon for customers to thank store clerks. In Kansai, though, it is considered polite and normal to say arigatou, or ookini.
Another question, arigatou gozaimasu vs arigatou gozaimashita. Obviously the latter is the past tense, but are they totally interchangeable or is there a real difference? I’ve listened to a lot of stuff in Japanese and they seem to be used totally interchangeably, but it bugs me not knowing for sure.
American English, IME, seems to be circling around to “no problem” being the default.
Polite maybe, but Kansai is a very large region to attribute the usage of “Ookini” for “Thanks”. Geishas in Gion for sure and pockets of shitamachi areas in Osaka perhaps, but even then it’s used by the older generation and usually between customers and shops that are familiar with each other.
I think “you’re welcome” is also a dismissive response. “Why thank me? You’re welcome to it!”
It is so automatic that I don’t really think about how I respond, which is typically just “Iya” with a little up-waive of my hand as I say it.
When I think about it, it seems a little dismissive, but I’ve never gotten a bad reaction to it.
I’ve gotten “Iya” as a response as well when I’ve thanked others, depending on the situation, and then only from those I consider my peers.
In a lot of situations they are interchangeable, but sometimes not. For example, if someone is thanking you at the end of the night for an enjoyable evening, they would use “Arigatou gozaimashita”. If someone is pouring you a drink and you want to say thanks, you would use “Arigatou gozaimasu”.
I hate to derail this thread again with a (very) minor disagreement, but I think you underestimate how common ookini is. I hear it frequently not only in Osaka and Kyoto, but also in Nara and parts of Mie. Even here, in southern Gifu, I hear it on occasion, though very rarely. There’s certainly a big age/occupation bias in usage but as discussions like this one hint, it’s still used by younger people and outside of Osaka and Kyoto.
And to add to what you wrote on arigatou gozaimasu vs arigatou gozaimashita, here’s an example:
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Here, let me carry those heavy bags for you.
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Arigatou gozaimasu <- Can’t use gozaimashita because you’re thankful for something that hasn’t happened yet.
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I left the bags in your room.
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Arigatou gozaimashita. <- The action is completed. Gozaimasu could be used also.
There aren’t many situations where arigatou gozaimasu would be inappropriate but I can think of one: thanking someone who is leaving, or who you are leaving. E.g. thanking a colleague who is retiring, or graduating students thanking a teacher. Using the present/future tense would be odd.
I suppose it depends on what your definition of “common” and “frequent” is. It’s definitely not something I would hear on a regular basis living in Kobe, which is right beside Osaka, home of Kansai-ben. I can’t remember the last time anyone used “Okini”, except when in Kyoto. It would also depend on the company around you. If they are the type to use that language you may think it’s “common” because it’s used within your group, but not so among the general populace.
I think Kobe (and Hyogo in general) is probably one of those places in Kansai where ookini is on the way out. I don’t think I’ve heard it used there either. Like most dialect it’s very much a YMMV issue (like you say, it’s mostly about where and with who you hang out), but the one situation in which you hear it most frequently, IME, is when someone gives you back your change.
To sort of bring this back on topic, the point is that what constitutes an appropriate response to something almost entirely depends on context. Where you are, who you are, who the other person is, what is happening…
It’s not a matter of being “on the way out” - It just isn’t a common way to say “Thank you”, except for pocketed areas in Kansai. It is strictly a regional dialect. As for people saying it when they receive change… I won’t say never ever, but definitely not “frequently”, especially in Gifu where you claim it’s used “often”.
Wait, what? Please re-read my post carefully, because I never claimed so.
Very rarely != often.
Ah, so it’s rarely used in Gifu, but you hear it frequently when receiving change in Nara and Mie. I suppose that makes it common. Any other conditions to limit how frequently “Okini” is used?
My emphasis.
I’m not a native, but I’ll go ahead and give my thoughts.
This is something that Westerners get wrong. As you say, people know that Japanese are ultra polite, so Westerners assume that Japanese would give the same ultra polite response that a Westerner would on such an occasion. Westerns are taught to ooh and aah over gifts, so people expect that Japanese would do the same. They don’t.
Gifts are given under different circumstances in Japan. Bringing back souvenirs, usually sweets, is a social requirement, for example, when going on either a business or personal trip. However the gifts are not fawned over. I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s a perfunctory courtesy, but close.
In informal situations, such as among business friends, there is more appreciation shown, but it’s understated. Gratitude by silence, widened eyes and a bow. A slightly audible intake of air if it’s particularly impressive, such as then I gave a 1990 St Emilion Grand Cru Classé to a really good customer who appreciates wine. (Most Japanese do not, but this guy knew his wine and his Scotch. He look me to a Scotch bar once where he easily spend $500 for the two of us.)
In contrast to the West, it is improper for inferiors to evaluate superiors. A student would never think of telling a professor that their lecture was “good” only that they learned a lot. Native posters can weigh in, but this may be a factor for more significant gifts.
Not really. As hibernicus points out, Japanese tend to apologize to others in situations where Westerns tend to express feelings of thankfulness. They feel bad that they have had to inconvenience you.
Giving direct thanks is often considered juvenile behavior, or arrogant in many situations where Westerns would simply say “thanks” or “thank you.”
One of the more common uses of doo itashimashite would be when an older person has given a child something, the child thanks the person and the older person would say that, especially elderly people or when you are teaching children manners.
どういたしまして。(doo itashimashite, an obvious joke, since this is where Westerners would very well say, "You’re welcome.) I’ll put on my Japanese hat and say いいえ、うまく説明できなくって、申し訳ございません。 “No, I’m sorry that I was not able to explain things well.”
How long were you in Japan and what were you doing? I’m really surprised how much less I understand Taiwanese culture despite being married to a Taiwanese (and I’m glad that you specified that it’s a person you’re married to 
) and living here for almost two years.
I had been married previously to a Japanese and had lived there for 25 years over a 33-year-period, but the circumstances are completely different. Here, I don’t interact with Taiwanese as a “native” where in Japan, I was more or less forced to as a salesman.
To add on to what Saturn Dreams and jovan say about mashita is thanking someone when the action is complete. Often you will hear the people at restaurants say arigatou gozaimasu after you have gotten up from your table and when you are headed to the cashier. After you pay, they will all call out arigatou gozaimashita.
Some of these differences are similar to the English use of the simple past versus the present perfect in that there can be subtle degrees of difference or they can be interchangeable.
I used to hang out in a jazz bar, where I kept a bottle of scotch. The mama-san would always say itsumo, arigatou gozaimasu “Thank you for always (coming here)” probably to emphasis our ongoing relationship, where the female bar tender at another club would always use arigatou gozaimashita.
jovan, how long have you been there? I long time IIRC.
After a couple of decades of living in Japan, it’s been interesting to move to Taiwan where the customs are such different.
I’m typing this on the highway bus to Taipei. Boarding the bus, there was a woman with her son, around 4, on her lap, sitting on the side of the bus with single rows. (Children under 6 ride for free if they don’t have their own seat.) I sat on the other side of the isle, in the rows with two seats. The bus didn’t fill up but there weren’t any two empty seats together.
I offered to switch seats with her, so her son could have his own seat. She nodded her thanks and moved. I nodded back and that was that.
This is a place where a Japanese would have profusely apologized for inconveniencing myself for her benefit. Although she would undoubtedly be grateful for not having to spend the 90 minute ride with a wiggly son on her lap, she’d also be somewhat embarrassed that a stranger had to help her. No embarrassed enough to refuse the help, but there is an element there which isn’t in the other cultures I’m familiar with.
In this case, I’d probably say something like “ii desu yo.” (it’s OK) since I’m clearly being helpful and attentive to someone else’s needs, something most middle aged men don’t do.
An American would have thanked me and I’d respond with a “no problem.”
Ah yes, convenience store and fast food workers who spit out overly formal Japanese with no feeling. Most Japanese simply ignore them.
Which of course happens in all cultures but to the nth degree in Japan, where they print manuals with diagrams where the people should sit in taxis, according to rank, where visitors should be placed in conference rooms and who give opinions when.
One problem with become better at Japanese is that the expectations of understanding all this starts to rise. For those who are not functionally fluent in the language, they do not suppose that the person will understand which words to use, but that doesn’t give you a free pass forever.
The thing with the language is that a non-native can be as fluent as, or even a better speaker (in terms of word usage and honorifics) than a native Japanese, but they would forever be treated as an “outsider”, with the sole reason being that they couldn’t fully understand all the customs and nuances because they are not “true” Japanese. There still remains a glass ceiling that non-natives cannot break through which leads to talented foreigners leaving for greener pastures, i.e. outside Japan.
As a side note, I am a native Japanese born in Japan to Japanese parents but received my higher education overseas. I speak fluent English and hold dual nationality, the other being Canadian. At work, the running joke is that I’m the “foreign guy”.
15.5 years. For most of which I’ve been almost entirely cut-off from the expat community. I think I get to speak English maybe four or five times a year nowadays.
I teach in university and I actually get to hand out those manuals to my students. Way back when I once decided to get a “real” job in Japan, I studied all those rules. Then I got a job for a small company in Osaka with a lot of clients in the manufacturing sector and found out a lot of what I had learned was wrong. When we went to visit clients in Tokyo, I found that what I learned wasn’t so wrong after all.
A somewhat related anecdote: I’m building a house right now, and so I’ve been spending a lot of time at the construction company’s offices. One day, my (Japanese) wife told me: “It’s funny, the boss’ sister doesn’t look anything like him.” I told her I didn’t think the woman he always calls nee-san was related to him. My wife couldn’t believe a boss would call an employee “sister,” but I was right. It would be highly, highly inappropriate for a bank manager in Tokyo to call his secretary nee-san, but in a small construction company in Gifu? That’s part of the culture.