Zombie Pigs: Yummy or YEEARRRGH!!! ?

[WhyNot]

Over in another thread, **Cervaise **mentioned:

… there has been research into snipping out the “anxiety” gene (or genes), fundamentally altering the nature of the animals so they passively accept being crammed into tighter and tighter quarters.

And I said:

Now that’s interesting, and brings shades of Douglas Adams to the debate! Would an ethical vegetarian (or vegan) eat an animal that was not stressed by, but still raised under “horrible” conditions?

What about a suicidal animal, that desperately wanted to die and be eaten?

And **Maastricht **replied:

Heh. I believe you are talking about Zombie Pigs!If you start a new thread, I’ll meanwhile ponder the ethics.

I’m also reminded of the vat-grown human meat thread of a while back, but the Search hamsters have failed me.

So what do we think? Is this research ethical? Would eating zombie pigs be more ethical than eating stressed out pigs raised in the same conditions? If a pig felt no stress, would it be ethical to treat it even more harshly than meat pigs are raised now (assuming it might be more cost efficient to do so)?

I’m a little horrified by the whole thing, to be honest, and I have no idea where I stand, so I’m just going to sit back and see where this thing goes.

ETA: Upon reflection, I’m not sure where this should go. It seems more about ethics than food, so Cafe Society seems inappropriate. Vegetarian/animal ethics threads usually get too hot for IMHO, so that’s why I chose GD…ah, well. Mods will, I’m sure, move it as they see fit.

[Dunderman]

If the pigs truly do not suffer, I fail to see the problem.

[Czarcasm]

@Priceguy

If the pigs truly do not suffer, I fail to see the problem.

If the pigs do not suffer, are they truly pigs?
Or do we rename them “Shmoos”?

[Cervaise]

@Priceguy

If the pigs truly do not suffer, I fail to see the problem.

I would not eat one of these pigs.

I want my meat animals to be fully capable of suffering.

Not because I enjoy it.

But because otherwise I risk blinding myself to the reality of my actions.

[Dunderman]

@Czarcasm

If the pigs do not suffer, are they truly pigs?
Or do we rename them “Shmoos”?

Name 'em what you will, and pass the bacon.

@Cervaise

I want my meat animals to be fully capable of suffering.

Not because I enjoy it.

But because otherwise I risk blinding myself to the reality of my actions.

When the reality of your actions is that you cause no suffering, you are not blinding yourself to it, you’re realising it.

[Czarcasm]

What a wonderful idea this is-if there is no pain, there is no guilt. Does this mean that it’s o.k. to bomb the crap out of a country if we first find a way to add a pain-killing agent into the air or water supply first?

[Dunderman]

@Czarcasm

What a wonderful idea this is-if there is no pain, there is no guilt. Does this mean that it’s o.k. to bomb the crap out of a country if we first find a way to add a pain-killing agent into the air or water supply first?

Only if you somehow remove all the other bad effects of bombing the crap out of countries - grief, fear, senseless destruction and so forth. Also, make damn sure everybody is affected by whatever measures you take.

[Czarcasm]

@Priceguy

Only if you somehow remove all the other bad effects of bombing the crap out of countries - grief, fear, senseless destruction and so forth. Also, make damn sure everybody is affected by whatever measures you take.

Yeah, that might take a bit of genetic manipulation, wouldn’t it?

[Dunderman]

@Czarcasm

Yeah, that might take a bit of genetic manipulation, wouldn’t it?

Quite.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Czarcasm

What a wonderful idea this is-if there is no pain, there is no guilt. Does this mean that it’s o.k. to bomb the crap out of a country if we first find a way to add a pain-killing agent into the air or water supply first?

But in this case, we’ve already decided it’s okay to eat/hurt animals–in this case, pigs. If we’re already okay with eating them, why not make the process as humane as possible?

[Terrifel]

Now, I’m a huge fan of Frankenstein technology; but I also think that if a society has reached the point of creating a race of genetically lobotomized pigs to feed its insatiable demand for pork products, that society might first wish to consider getting off its collective ass and eating some fucking vegetables instead.

I mean, breeding for temperament is one thing, but specifically rewriting an animal’s genes so that they fit better in tiny boxes? That’s culturally demented on the level of Chinese foot-binding.

If genetic engineering is really the best solution, then at least why not just wait a few more years until it’s feasible to grow pork chops on vines?

[Maastricht]

The linked article has a real bio ethics professor commenting on the phenomenon.
He raises some points:

Many of the genetic manipulation (GM) experiments on animals have resulted in cruelty, producing mutants or animals which grow so large in the womb that they can only be surgically removed.

This is certainly a consideration, although the experiments will be behind closed doors and only the end result will be presented to the public.

The professor said that religious groups would see it as “an attempt to usurp God’s role” while others would be unhappy about “so fundamentally altering the natural order”.

Religious groups, keen to condemn doctors 'playing God" when it comes to euthanasia, stem cells and some types of advanced medicine, draw a very clear line between human bodies and animal bodies. I don’t expect them to speak up. Very few of them speak up against current industrial farming as it is.

And finally, the prof made a prediction of how it’s probably going to end up, if the way the public reacted to gm soy is any indication:

…demanded separate farming and labelling of food from these creatures to allow consumers to make a choice about what they are eating.

That’s how it went over here with so called “Frankenstein foods” containing gm soy. The discussion first was about " should we allow gm soy" but as that soon became a run race (gm soy was cheaper to produce, so farmers worldwide made the switch anyway) the discussion soon petered out into: “how extensive should the labelling be?” And most recently, folks seem to have lost interest and only hard-core health foods still refuse to use gm plant material.
If I, in turn, look into my cristal ball, I predict it public opinion will go in a similar way with zombie pigs. Especially the kind of zombie pigs that will be allow themselves to be treated even worse, thus yielding more profit then th eworst kind of industrial farming does now.
Stage one will be: “Ooh, new! Scary! Principles! Outrage!”
Stage two: “Must be bad for my health! My kids health! Sci-Fi horror scenario’s! Ban it!”
Stage three: “Well it is cheaper, and no-one seems to die from it…well, label it, okay?”
Stage four: “Gimme the cheap hot-dog,and you can keep your fancy eco tree-hugging posh hotdog for yourself, if you want to pay that much money for it. Meat is meat, and me and my family have gotta make ends meet financially. You gotta let people choose for themselves.”

[WhyNot]

Here’s the thing: there’s ethics, and there’s “the gut test”. Y’know, how you just FEEL that something is wrong? I’m rather proud of the fact that usually my gut aligns with my head in ethics puzzles, but this time, the two are way on opposite ends. My head says, “Yeah, sure, why not? If there’s no suffering, there’s no problem.”

My gut says, “Are you frickin’ kidding me? The answer isn’t to tinker with genetics, it’s to treat things with a modicum of respect.”

To which my head says, “Well, yeah, but shouldn’t that “respect” be based on what the recipient feels appropriate? Let’s not anthropomorphize pigs here. And these aren’t even pigs, so let’s not porcinepomorphize them, either. They should be treated on their own terms, not human ones.”

To which my gut goes, “No, sorry, there are some things that are just wrong, even if the wronged is okay with it. See previous arguments re: female genital mutilation. A creature raised in a culture of suffering may not know it is suffering, but it’s still wrong to contribute to that suffering.”

To which my head goes, “But they’re *not *suffering, that’s the whole point!”

To which my gut goes, “But…but…ZOMBIE PIGS!!! That’s just…ZOMBIE PIGS! Humans playing God! Cats lying with Dogs! Not the natural order of things!”

To which my head goes, “You know what you need, gut? You need a nice BLT with low-fat mayo, that’s what you need.”

So I’m still not comfortable here.

I should add that I really am interested in the vegetarian/vegan point of view here. I am not one, although some of my best friends are vegetarians (not that there’s anything wrong with that.)

[WhyNot]

Maastricht, I see you predicted my post while I was writing it. Yeah, my gut is stuck at stage 1. That’s a really interesting progression of the public perception/debate around food. Has it always been like this, does he know? Was this the reaction when, say, tomatoes were introduced to Europe from the Americas?

[Czarcasm]

@Terrifel

If genetic engineering is really the best solution, then at least why not just wait a few more years until it’s feasible to grow pork chops on vines?

Woah there, Bucky! I can just see it now-deer, rabbits and other creatures of the wild seeing the “fruit” on the vine, tasting it, and developing a taste for it. Next thing you know, the sparrows and robins are flying down the chimney looking for fresh baby meat, prairie dogs are traveling in packs and attacking little old ladies, and the elk decide it’s “Human Season”.

[Terrifel]

@Czarcasm

Woah there, Bucky! I can just see it now-deer, rabbits and other creatures of the wild seeing the “fruit” on the vine, tasting it, and developing a taste for it. Next thing you know, the sparrows and robins are flying down the chimney looking for fresh baby meat, prairie dogs are traveling in packs and attacking little old ladies, and the elk decide it’s “Human Season”.

Well, then we simply give the pork chop venomous jellyfish tentacles to deter predators.

[Maastricht]

@Priceguy

If the pigs truly do not suffer, I fail to see the problem.

You know what IS the problem? Establishing that pigs, or indeed any living thing, does or doesn’t suffer. Whose word are we going to take on that? The farmers? Mr. Hired Scientist’s?

Personally, I feel that if an organism has a brain higher developed then a [del]chicken[/del], [del]bug[/del], protozoa, it can suffer. It all becomes a matter of degrees.

[Maastricht]

Ha, WhyNot. I’m a bit slow; I catch up on reading only after posting.

I’m not sure your gut reaction is the same one I described. The publics’ reaction to gm soy, stage one, was never about the ethics in reagard to the soy plant itself. I guess most people would have found it too silly to debate a plants well being. I would, too.

Your gut response IS about what is done to the pig, and frankly, my gut is right there with you.

Okay, I’ve taken a stance. Untill pig meat can be grown in a vat, without the pig’s brains and hormones involved, I’m against making and marketing zombie pig meat.

Now, would I be against industrial farming if all the pigs were high on morphine and heroin all the time?

[Dunderman]

@Maastricht

You know what IS the problem? Establishing that pigs, or indeed any living thing, does or doesn’t suffer.

Yeah, that’s why I put an “if” there. I’m not convinced we can create a pig that doesn’t suffer and I’m not convinced that if we can we are able to tell for sure. But on the ethical side of it, I’m straight on the side of “if the pig doesn’t suffer, it’s all right by me”.

[begbert2]

@WhyNot

Maastricht, I see you predicted my post while I was writing it. Yeah, my gut is stuck at stage 1. That’s a really interesting progression of the public perception/debate around food. Has it always been like this, does he know? Was this the reaction when, say, tomatoes were introduced to Europe from the Americas?

The english thought they were poisonous (due to their acidity leaching the lead from their pewter plates and giving eaters fatal lead poisoning), but it seems nobody else had a problem with them.

(Oh, and if I’m going to be eating pig anyway, I don’t mind if the thing doesn’t suffer between the sty and my plate.)