right turn on red light question

[filmyak]

As all of us U.S. drivers know, while driving a car it's legal to make a right hand turn on red. Yeah yeah, you have to come to a complete stop, look both ways, make sure signs don't prohibit it, etc.

But what if there's a right turn indicator? That is, the bottom of the traffic light has a right pointing green arrow... and a right pointing red arrow.

I'd assume that the red arrow would just mean caution, pedestrians may be allowed to cross, so come to a complete stop and look before proceeding.

Of course all the nitwits in front of me tend to stop and wait for the right pointing green arrow, and it's a loooonnnnnggg light.

Are they wasting my time, or preventing me from breaking the law?

[Reeder]

Not all states allow right turn on red. The red arrow would mean no.

[Ringo]

Where are you? I've never seen that particular traffic light setup, but actually having a right turn red might make one think that you must wait for the right turn green.

Is this at one intersection, perhaps a messy one?

[filmyak]

The light in question is in Los Angeles. It's an intersection, on the smaller street. My assumption was that the right/red was to let you know that oncoming cars were turning left into that area, and/or pedestrians had a "walk" sign. So I tend to treat it as a stop sign, and I make sure I won't hit anyone/thing before I turn.

Reeder, what states don't allow that? I had no idea that wasn't a national standard.

[Duckster]

Originally posted by Reeder
Not all states allow right turn on red. The red arrow would mean no.

If I remember correctly, all states are required to have right turn on red laws under some sort of federal regulation or law. However, this does not prevent a state from place "No Turn On Red" signs at intersections the state feels is too dangerous any other way.

I believe this is how Massachuseets orginally protested the federal mandate. They complied with the right turn on red, but placed no turn on red signs at all traffic light intersections, except for one or two.

[dqa]

from Federal Highway Administration
All states permit "right-turn-on-red" (unless there is a sign prohibiting it), but only only after stopping and only if the intersection is safe and clear of pedestrians and other vehicles.

The most significant nearby areas where right on red is routinely prohibited are New York City and most of Quebec.

[Joey P]

I always assumed a red arrow in either direction meant DON'T TURN. When you have a right arrow like that it often means that oncoming traffic turning left swings all the way into the lane that you'd be turning onto (and that they have a green right arrow). There's a couple of those like that around Milwaukee. Particularly at the Howard on ramp

[Duck Duck Goose]

Yeah, if there's a right-turn arrow, that usually means the intersection is complex enough that you really need all the help the Highway Department can give you to get out there safely, so respect the arrow's advice.

We've got several (in)famous right-turn arrows here, up by Hickory Point Mall, with intersections that involve trucks that come barreling down from Clinton on U.S. 51, and they ain't gonna slow down until they absolutely have to, not even if there's somebody turning right-on-red in front of them. We learn to obey those arrows, 'cause they're not kidding. You need them to get out in front of those 18-wheelers safely.

[dqa]

And, I didn't notice on the same FHA page I linked to above,

RED ARROW - STOP. No turn permitted in the direction of the arrow.

[filmyak]

Cool. Instant replies. Can't beat that! Now if only my great debates post on Kashmere would get resolved this quickly....

[Gary T]

Assuming right turn on red is the code in your state, and that there are no signs to the contrary at the particular intersection:

The green right arrow means you may proceed with the right turn without stopping. It's just the same as having a green light, except it applies only to the right turn lane.

Logic tells me that the red right arrow would mean you may not proceed with the turn, even after stopping. If they wanted you to do the normal right turn on red, stopping first, there would be no need to spend extra money on having a red right arrow, as the regular red light would handle that. Presumably there's a situation there where they don't want to prohibit right turn on red all the time, as a sign could take care of that.

Now, I guess it might be possible that it means they want the right turners to do a standard right turn on red, and they can't use the regular red light because, say, straight ahead traffic has a green. But I've never seen such a set-up, and I feel I'm really reaching even postulating it. I would think it's pretty safe to say that if there's a regular red light AND a red right arrow, that right turn on red is not allowed there.

[Big Kahuna Burger]

[hijack, we should have that smiley]
I have another right turn on red question. If you have a sign that says right turn on red, what happens if opposing traffic has a left turn only signal? Is it allowed?
[/hijack, we should have that smiley]

I've never seen a red right turn signal, the right turn signals I have seen (most of them are due to opposing traffic having left turn signals, but my question pertains to those without) only have green and yellow, then go blank and let the no turn on red sign take over.

[dqa]

BKB, in answer to your hijack, read the FHA quote above.

Now, to my own hijacks:

1. Many states allow a left turn on red at an intersection of two one-way streets. I'm pretty sure this is not allowed in New Jersey. How common is this in other states?

2. Parts of Canada use a flashing green at left turn lights to indicate the turn is protected from oncoming traffic. Is there any advantage to this over a standard green arrow that disappears when the turn is no longer protected?

[Kaboodle]

I have another right turn on red question. If you have a sign that says right turn on red, what happens if opposing traffic has a left turn only signal? Is it allowed?

If you are in the right hand lane facing south and you have a red light. The northbound traffic in their left lane has a green arrow. When making a right turn on red you must yield to any other traffic. The traffic making the left turn has the right-of-way. If you are turning onto a street with two lanes on each side you do not get the curb lane and the left turning traffic gets the inside line, you must yield.

Can you tell someone pulled this on me two days ago?

[rjung]

I believe a right-turn red arrow supercedes the "right turn on red" rule -- if the arrow is on, making a right turn would result in a violation.

And filmyak, if you want to see a right-turn red arrow for a major street, travel west on the santa Monica freeway (the 10), then exit northbound at La Brea. The light at the bottom of the intersection is a right-turn only deal, and there's a red arrow.

[Kalashnikov]

Here's the relevant NH law. It seems rather strangely worded to me.

III. Steady Red Indication.
...
(d) Traffic, except pedestrians, facing a steady red arrow indication may not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by such arrow, unless entering the intersection to make such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to make the movement indicated by such arrow is shown, except as provided in subparagraph III(f).

(e) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian signal, pedestrians facing a steady red arrow signal indication shall not enter the roadway.

(f) Except when the authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits such a turn and a sign located at the intersection so indicates, vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone or a steady red arrow indication shall stop as required in this section and may after making such stop make a right turn if such right turn is lawful at that intersection. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right of way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.

So... it's not allowed, except that it is allowed.
In practice, people here do turn right on a right arrow.

[SirRay]

In NY State, State Law (sometimes posted at intersections) prohibits (any) turns on 'Red Arrows'. So no, no right on red where there's a red right arrow (example: Henry St. onto Graham Ave. in Hempstead, where there's also a sign mentioning the NY State law).
This is a travesty, as NY State is utterly addicted to Left Turn Signals and places them everywhere, almost always wasting motorist's time without gaining any measure of safety (I did write to Dr. Conehead's Traffic column about this, and the DOT confused response seemed to indicate they were smoking more crack than usual that day)

[Patty O'Furniture]

In DC, a green arrow grants unconditional right-of-way, and a red arrow is an unconditional do-not-proceed. This is especially important on traffic circles and so many people have been caught turning on a red arrow that there are now signs at most intersections that say "right turn on green -> only".

[Balthisar]

Originally posted by dqa
BKB, in answer to your hijack, read the FHA quote above.

Now, to my own hijacks:

1. Many states allow a left turn on red at an intersection of two one-way streets. I'm pretty sure this is not allowed in New Jersey. How common is this in other states?

Michigan is one such state, but it doesn't matter if the origin street is one way or not. That is, whether or not I'm on a one-way or two-way street, I can legally make a left turn during a red light onto a one-way street (and you gotta assume the one-way street actually circulates to the left!).

Also, it's legal to run red lights and go straight in Michigan! It's called "clearing the intersection when safe." For example, imagine a boulevard with north-south traffic, and a simple cross street going east to west. The intersection would have two stop lights, one for the west-side south-going lane, and one for the east-side north going lane. If I'm traveling north-bound, and I make a left turn (go west) during a green light onto the cross-street, I'd generally hit a red light (since the north-south lights were green, the east-west would be red). In this case, because of the possibility of traffic waiting to accumulate behind me, it's legal to run the red light when it's safe to do so. The logic is, I could go left on that red light, and it's probably actually safer to go straight.

However, these types of intersections are not too prevelent any more because a lot of ignorant people don't know the laws and cause accidents and/or congestion. So, we have a good number of such intersections that dictate "no left turn," which gives us the concept of "Michigan turns," whereby we have to pass through the intersection, and make a U-turn at the next turn-around point.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally posted by dqa
1. Many states allow a left turn on red at an intersection of two one-way streets. I'm pretty sure this is not allowed in New Jersey. How common is this in other states?

This is allowed in Illinois:

You may make a right turn at a red light, or you may make a left turn at a red light when turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street that has traffic moving to the left. In both instances, drivers must come to a full stop and yield the right-of-way to oncoming traffic and pedestrians.

And regarding that red arrow:

RED ARROW: The red arrow means do not make the movement shown by the arrow until a green arrow appears. You may make a right turn at a red arrow or a left turn at a red arrow when turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street that has traffic moving to the left. In both instances, drivers must come to a full stop and yield the right-of way to oncoming traffic and pedestrians.

That appears to be saying that in Illinois, don't move on a red arrow unless it's a right turn on red, or a left turn on red from a one-way street onto a left-moving one-way street. In that instance, you must treat the red arrow as a stop sign.

This page lists the "No Turn on Red" sign for traffic lights.

[wooba]

Originally posted by dqa
Parts of Canada use a flashing green at left turn lights to indicate the turn is protected from oncoming traffic. Is there any advantage to this over a standard green arrow that disappears when the turn is no longer protected? [/b]

I can only assume it's for cost. Doing this means you can use standard style lights, which have to be cheaper than the larger ones. There are plenty of lights that have arrows underneath, particularly at larger intersections, but the flashing green is far more common.

[dwc1970]

This site indicates that it's legal just about everywhere in the U.S. to make a right turn on a red light (after stopping, of course). Right turns on red arrows, however, are more restricted or are not in the laws of some states.

[Johnny L.A.]

Suffering from severe sleep deprivation here...

Is it legal to turn right on a red light in Canada?

[dwc1970]

Originally posted by Johnny L.A.
Suffering from severe sleep deprivation here...

Is it legal to turn right on a red light in Canada?

Looks like it is according to the site I cited above. In Quebec, however, it is legal in only 26 municipalities.

[dwc1970]

Originally posted by Johnny L.A.
Suffering from severe sleep deprivation here...

Is it legal to turn right on a red light in Canada?

Looks like it is according to the site I cited above. In Quebec, however, it is legal in only 26 municipalities.

[Johnny L.A.]

Aha. So I guess I'll be okay in B.C.

[Barbarian]

Yeah, you're allowed to turn right on red lights here.

However, in BC a flashing green light means absolutely nothing-- it's an indicator that a pedestrian at the side of the road can push a button madly hoping that the light will change.

It does NOT mean you can turn left safely, as I nearly died finding out soon after moving to BC from Quebec.

[mnemosyne]

IIRC, Quebec has accepted the right turn on red, and its becoming province-wide this summer.

[Heretic Jones]

I just wanted to toss 2¢ in...

If you have an oppurtunity to turn right, and were to have a green arrow, usually the green arrow corresponds to the people that are turning from the intersecting street onto yours, headed in the opposite direction.
If this was taking place, pedestrians couldn't really cross anyway.

If this was not taking place, it could be that the left turn lanes on your street, both ways, are turning, and it is saying "Don't turn now, because there are people coming onto the same street.
(You're turning right, they're facing you and turning left, so you might crunch if you go now.)

Or something like that.

[dqa]

Originally posted by dwc1970
This site indicates that it's legal just about everywhere in the U.S. to make a right turn on a red light (after stopping, of course)....Looks like it is [legal in Canada] according to the site I cited above. In Quebec, however, it is legal in only 26 municipalities.

All of which I basically noted above. However, your site, while lacking the imprimateur of the federal government, is excellent, and I think a paragraph deserves to be quoted which seems to answer the OP definitively.

Red arrows are used in some states and Puerto Rico. 12 states (Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming) permit turns on red arrows after stop (New Hampshire prohibits LTOR, circular or arrows). 8 states (Alaska, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Maine, Minnesota, and New York) and Puerto Rico prohibit turns on red arrows. Other state laws do not mention red arrows, presumably because of non-usage.

[Barbarian]

Originally posted by mnemosyne
IIRC, Quebec has accepted the right turn on red, and its becoming province-wide this summer.

I thought Montreal (your new, expanded, island-wide version) was still banning it?

[bobk2]

Here's a late data point that may not add much;

I know one complicated intersection in nearby Arlington MA that has a right turn Red/Green arrow, and they did also post a "No Right Turn On Red" sign which should help clarify things.

Of course, in another part of this very same intersection they have a green "forwards/straight" arrow hanging over a lane that is painted on the ground with a sign/arrow "Right Turn Only".

And mini-hijack ; We also have a state law that says motorists must yield to pedestrians in marked crosswalks. However, its unclear what happens when the crosswalk has a "Don't Walk" sign flashing and pedestrians cross anyhow.