Does God ever give up on someone?

[il Topo]

I guess my proposed “Great Debate” is:
Does God ever give up on someone?
When should a person searching for God give up?
Or, more personally, in spite of my efforts, why don’t I have faith???

I’m trying to believe in the Christian god, but it just isn’t working.

I’ve tried observation, learning, discussion and logic. I’ve discussed and debated the issues with numerous people (including some learned and devout officials of the church) for over a decade now. Logic fails with an all-good, all-powerful and all-knowing god, and I haven’t seen God act in any fashion in my life. Not that he hasn’t acted, but he is, at the very least, apparently good at being inconspicuous, and if he exists I can’t help but wonder why he hides from me.

When that failed, I tried practicing religion (e.g., going to church even though I don’t believe), and I tried classifying myself as a sinner attempting to repent (as opposed to being agnostic). I’ve prayed for some sort of inspiration, and not even for myself, but for the benefit of my children. I’ve read a little of the Bible and church teachings. That isn’t working either.

So, nothing is working--logic, discussion, learning, contemplation, observation, feeling and the repetitive practice of Christianity have all failed me. What is there left to do?

I believe and attempt to follow all the consequentialist morality of the Church (e.g., teachings regarding sins that have victims). But I doubt the “nonconsequentialist” morality of the Church (e.g., teachings regarding non-physical beliefs and morals such as sins of the mind rather than of action, belief in the Trinity, the Resurrection, Transubstantiation, and the details of the lives of Jesus and the saints). Why can’t I believe in these nonconsequentialist teachings?

I just sat through church this morning, and I was truly disturbed by my lack of belief in a large part of what everyone else in the building holds dear. Not to mention that my kids are asking questions about this kind of stuff, and I don’t want to lie to them. Is it time I gave up and went to a Unitarian church or gave up altogether? How long must I wait for God to somehow meet me half way??? Will he ever?

[Little Bird]

You can do what I did--study other religions. There is a slew of fascinating religions and belief systems out there. If Judeo-Christianisms aren't working for you, try studying Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc. If you find something that approximates your own personal beliefs, go with it! If you don't believe in god it's not a bad thing. You may find something else to believe in, as long as you believe in yourself.

[WV_Woman]

All I can tell you, Topo, is that the Bible says that you will find God when you seek Him with all of your heart. I believe you are doing this and so it's just a matter of time, IMHO.

As far as God "giving up" on someone, there *are* scriptures that discuss God turning someone over to a reprobate mind (I think in Romans). You are not the type of person that those passages would apply to, though, as you obviously have a desire to know God.

Best I can tell the kind of person in danger of this would be someone who continuously sins against God, all the while knowing better and following their own plans anyway. It's not that God "gives up," I think maybe there is just a point where it becomes obvious that someone is always going to reject the Holy Spirit, and thus their hearts become so hardened that it is impossible for them to hear God calling them. They're gonna do what they want to do, regardless of the warnings given them.
(Please note that this is just MHO here, minus the scripture part.)

Anyhow, keep searching. If God went through all the trouble to send Jesus to die for you, why would He spend your whole life hiding from you so in the end you'd be separated from Him?

PS, if you're up for some Bible, start with the book of John.

[Hootnholla]

not too sound disrespectful, mean or unfaithful, but what if there isnt a god?

[il Topo]

Originally posted by Hootnholla
not too sound disrespectful, mean or unfaithful, but what if there isnt a god?

Your question is neither disrespectful nor mean (although perhaps a little “unfaithful” ) If there is no God, then I suppose no harm is done (to me personally), except that I have to decide at what point to stop looking. WV_Woman encourages me to keep my chin up [[my sincere thanks for the sentiment WV_Woman; I'm taking a look at John already]], but frankly, 10 years of looking for God is a little much, don't you think?

I’ve actually lived the life of a Christian (externally, consequentially, not religiously) even at the height of my doubts/agnosticism/atheism. I generally think the Golden Rule, etc., is a fair way to live, totally apart from the question of its divine derivation. So if there is no God, then my life continues on as it has as far as anyone else can tell. The only things I am looking for are a little internal peace and some certainty with which to teach my children. I need to commit one way or the other for their benefit. This wishy-washy approach I’m currently taking as I hover between secular humanism and Christianity is only bound to confuse them.

[il Topo]

Originally posted by Little Bird
You can do what I did--study other religions. There is a slew of fascinating religions and belief systems out there. If Judeo-Christianisms aren't working for you, try studying Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc. If you find something that approximates your own personal beliefs, go with it! If you don't believe in god it's not a bad thing. You may find something else to believe in, as long as you believe in yourself.

A reasonable question, for which my answer is likely insufficient.

I suppose I've discounted the whole "try other religions thing" as a possibility for me. If the religion of my forefathers isn't good enough, I don't want to waste time trying on all the other religions of the world. That would really be confusing for my kids, no?

Truth be told, I'm not in this for my own personal peace of mind (although that would be nice, and I mentioned that in another post). If that were the case, I wouldn't be in such an urgent panic as I am now. Besides, my agnosticism used to fit me fairly comfortably, and it would be fairly easy to slide back into it.

Rather, I really want to resolve these issues for the benefit for my children. I know a guy who changes religion every 3-5 years. My time for that kind of experimentation, as interesting as it might be, was up once I started having kids.

[p@cific@812]

Well Topo, being something of an atheist myself, I will have to withold comment on your first two questions. I believe a Little Bird mentioned something about looking into alternatives if the Biblical God is not for you. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was raised Christian, but felt the same kind of emptiness that seems to plague you. I went through a long period just hanging around in limbo without heeding any religion/ideology in particular. I have since found a sort of fufillment via Eastern religions-- particularly Taoism.

Or, more personally, in spite of my efforts, why don’t I have faith???

Onward to the meat of the issue. By "faith" I assume you mean the particular kind of faith possesed by those in your church. As you have said, you find the notion of the Biblical God to be somewhat implausible. You can't expect to have the same outlook on religion and faith as people who have a hard time imagining a universe without God. Trying to have faith in the Bible without God is like trying to build a house without a foundation. I guess my point is that not having faith in the sense of your comment isn't a bad thing. (Well, certain segments of the population would disagree with me on that, but I digress...) You don't have that kind of faith. Fine, get something else.

As far as God meeting you halfway.... The pious person would say that this is the essence of faith-- God is never going to drop by and say "Howya doing, Bob? See you in church on Sunday!" If you have faith, you shouldn't ever need to see any evidence of God at all. Your pastor's word should be enough for you. (This is where I get off the bus so to speak) Short version: If you are waiting for a shaft of light or a vision or something, it could be a while-- I wish you luck anyway though.

As far as your children are concerned, why do they need you to commit to a specific religion? Can you not instill into them morality and decency without the aid of a church? Perhaps you should consider encouraging them to look for their own answers while you provide a framework of values.

[dreamer]

Originally posted by il Topo

I’m trying to believe in the Christian god, but it just isn’t working.

I hope I don't come accross as rude for saying this, but if you don't believe and your still fighting with yourself trying to decide if you believe or not, or trying to force yourself to believe, it's not going to work. The thing about faith is that it is believing without seeing. If you say to yourself, "Yes, I believe in God, in Jesus, and the bible" but you really deep down inside don't believe, then your faith will never grow because you are stopping yourself from believing. It's not that God isn't there, it's that you must allow yourself to really believe in him without any doubts. Yes, you will have millions of questions without answers in the beginning of your walk and throughout your life and many things won't make sense, but letting go of that is faith and that is what will open you to finding it.

I’ve tried observation, learning, discussion and logic.

You have to come to God as a child, not expecting to understand his ways at first. A new relationship takes time and as you grow things are revealed to you. Observation is good but if you really want to know God personally, you kinda have to dive in and give your life to him. It sounds crazy at first, but as you begin to fall in love with him, you begin to understand what that means.

I haven’t seen God act in any fashion in my life. Not that he hasn’t acted, but he is, at the very least, apparently good at being inconspicuous, and if he exists I can’t help but wonder why he hides from me.

Again, if you want to believe in God you have to believe that he created everything you look at when you open your eyes and if you do believe that, then you will marvel at his beauty and love for his creation. If you really believe you will see all the things he's done in your life and though they may seem just like coincidences to you or anyone else, after reading his promises you will know they are not.

When that failed, I tried practicing religion (e.g., going to church even though I don’t believe), and I tried classifying myself as a sinner attempting to repent

You can't fake believing and you can't "attempt" to repent if it's really not true in your heart.

I just sat through church this morning, and I was truly disturbed by my lack of belief in a large part of what everyone else in the building holds dear. How long must I wait for God to somehow meet me half way??? Will he ever?

Just believe il Topo , if that is what you truly want to do.

[Drastic]

I suppose I've discounted the whole "try other religions thing" as a possibility for me. If the religion of my forefathers isn't good enough, I don't want to waste time trying on all the other religions of the world.

I make the suggestion to reread what you responded to; and further, suggest that "study" and "try" are two different words for a reason.

It's understandable that when you've decided God has to be a hammer, that you're fighting to become a nail. But, yup, there might be a point where the screwdriver is a little exasperated. But the belt sander is infinitely patient.

As far as children being confused...well, it seems to me that kids don't need any sort of theology, or any sort of lack of theology. Love is more than sufficient.

[MrO]

Originally posted by il Topo
Is it time I gave up and went to a Unitarian church or gave up altogether?

Unitarianism may be a good choice. I don't know that much, but based on what little I have heard, I have quite a bit of respect for Unitarianism.

I don't want to proseytize; I think we should all find our own way through these matters, lonely though that can be. In my case, though, peace of mind is something that I never had a whiff of during the 30 years I spent calling myself a Christian, trying to believe, claiming to believe, and constantly doubting, feeling that it was wrong and sinful of me to doubt. When I finally admitted to myself that I don't believe in any god, I became a lot happier, and consequently a lot nicer. My mind is pretty much at peace now, I live quite ethically, and don't consider myself at all reprobate. I don't claim that God gave up on me, because I don't believe he exists. I gave up trying to believe what I couldn't believe, and I became happy.

(It's another argument, touched on in other threads, but it's clear to me that no one can choose what to believe. Exerting faith is different from believing--it seems more like pretending to believe, to me. Willing supsension of disbelief is not belief.)

But I also looked into other religions pretty carefully before giving up, and I think it's good advice. Not so much so that you can find one you like better, but so that you'll understand more about what religion is. I'm still fascinated by religion in general and specific religions, and learning about them (others as well as Christianity) helped me to see them the way I do now--as cultural, social and psychological phenomena that serve many purposes, purposes that I think are better served in other ways.

Though I have a grown daughter, I don't presume to be an expert at parenting. I don't think indoctrinating children in a belief system that the parents themselves aren't sure of would be a good thing, though. The people that I know who grew up with no religion, or with open-minded parents who admitted that they didn't know the answers, seem very lucky and well-adjusted to me.

Peace of mind is important, for you and for your children. I wish you luck in your search for it. If religion can provide it for you, congratulations. But that isn't where everyone finds it.

[kniz]

Possible answers to whether God gives up on anyone:

• Parable of "The Prodigal Son"
• Shepard and the lost sheep
• Jesus associating with "sinners".

When should a person searching for God give up?

That question assumes failure and can only be self-fulfilling. You have looked for faith in the obvious places. Some people find an answer that suits them that way, but for others the answer is harder to find. I personally have never accepted the easy answers and have spent many years looking for answers that satisfy me. The search really should never end and you must savor the truths as you find them. There is nothing wrong with giving it a rest, since sometimes that is when it will come to you. Don't force it because an answer arrived at that way cannot be relied upon. It is personal and not subject to peer pressure which generally leads to easy but less satisfying answers.

why don’t I have faith???

Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place. Maybe looking for the wrong thing. Certainly, don't ask God for a sign. If there is ever a sign it will come from within and not from a candle burning in a pounding rain. Don't feel like a failure, because the journey is what provides the rewards not a treasure at the end of it.

Fairly corny stuff , but anyone that has been there knows it's true.

[MrO]

Originally posted by MrO
I don't want to proseytize. . . .

I don't usually bother to correct spelling mistakes, but this one looks too silly to let it go. "Proselytize," of course, has an "l" in it.

[Typo Negative]

God has proven elusive to me as well.......

[AHunter3]

I am not an atheist, but I would be, would have to be, if the only possible "God" were one that had faith in you {on Tuesday the 11th at 4:37 PM?}, mulled it over{?} {during the course of the evening?}, and then {?} decided{? in retrospect?}, to stop {wasting time? making efforts?} on your behalf {with plans? and strategies? and evaluations of their success? as of 11:17 PM that same night?}.

[montag01]

If Revelations is true, then I suppose yes, God does give up on some people at the end - since the still-unrepentent sinners go into eternal damnation with Satan, and there's no suggestion they can repent and be saved from suffering after this point. But my theological understanding of Revelations is shaky at best . . .

[p@cific@812]

Originally posted by AHunter3
I am not an atheist, but I would be, would have to be, if the only possible "God" were one that had faith in you {on Tuesday the 11th at 4:37 PM?}, mulled it over{?} {during the course of the evening?}, and then {?} decided{? in retrospect?}, to stop {wasting time? making efforts?} on your behalf {with plans? and strategies? and evaluations of their success? as of 11:17 PM that same night?}.

I can honestly say that I don't really understand what view you are trying to express in this post, AHunter3. Perhaps you wouldn't mind clarifying?

It sounds like this could be some sort of inflammatory statement like "Yeah, well God doesn't have faith in you, jerk!!!!" Please ellaborate for the benefit of all.

[Gozu]

Originally posted by il Topo

I suppose I've discounted the whole "try other religions thing" as a possibility for me. If the religion of my forefathers isn't good enough, I don't want to waste time trying on all the other religions of the world. That would really be confusing for my kids, no?

Your friends is trying religions like there were cars. Nobody is asking you to do the same. What you can do is study new religions (or branches of christianism ) and see if there is anything that appeals you in them. And don't worry so much about your kids. If you don't act like that freak..err..friend of yours, there is no problem...

[slight hijack]
And for the record. What's the deal with the whole pagan/wicca movement? Next thing you know, you'll have people worshipping Zeus or Odin...religion is not fashion. Once it's dead, it's dead!
[ok..it was a major hijack...sorry]

[Drastic]

...religion is not fashion...

Actually, I'd say there's plenty of parallels. Both are primarily socially driven; there's always a minority of people deliberately bending/breaking the normal conventions of it, and at random and utterly unpredictable intervals, some of those norm-bendings propagates quickly through a sizable chunk of the market.

As for always staying dead, I'd say that bit of minirant looks like a testable hypothesis.

[AHunter3]

Originally posted by p@cific@812


I can honestly say that I don't really understand what view you are trying to express in this post, AHunter3. Perhaps you wouldn't mind clarifying?

It sounds like this could be some sort of inflammatory statement like "Yeah, well God doesn't have faith in you, jerk!!!!" Please ellaborate for the benefit of all.

Not sure how you read that into it. Let's try again:

I am not an atheist, but I would be, would have to be, if the only possible "God" were one that had faith in you or anybody else, OK? {on Tuesday the 11th at 4:37 PM?}, mulled it over{?} {during the course of the evening?}, and then {?} decided{? in retrospect?}, to stop {wasting time? making efforts?} on your (or anybody else's) behalf {with plans? and strategies? and evaluations of their success? as of 11:17 PM that same night?}.

Does that help?

[Triskadecamus]

No.

I just wanted to get the one word answer out of the way. God doesn't give up on anyone.

Now, about what to do if you perceive no God, and are weary of the search. Let's examine the question of what if there is no God. You say you have lived the life you think a Christian should, yet you are obviously not doing so out of a perceived relationship with God. So, you need a good reason to go on.

Suppose there is no Christ. Would not the world be better if there was someone like Christ? Let us become Him, then, ourselves. We shall live our lives according to the standard of a non-existent being, who placed love before all else. We shall love each soul we meet as if we ourselves were Christ.

OK, it's a standard we can't reach. But the striving will be a thing worth doing by itself. And the world will be better, for this, that two people reached for a state of being worthy of the Child of God. And if we do it as best we can, and never take credit to ourselves for that goodness, but give it to all mankind, that man himself is worthy of our love, then we shall be faithful to our quest.

And, by the way, we shall be faithful to Christ, Himself. And He shall find us. That will probably work better than us searching for Him, what with Him being God, and all.

Tris

[clairobscur]

Honnestly, your post puzzles me. If you don't believe, why have you been actively trying (as opposed to for instance wondering wether there could be a god or not, which would make sense) to believe for such a long time instead of saying : "well, I just don't believe".


Same with your response re checking other religions. If there's one religion which is right, the fact that it is or it is not the religion of your forefather has absolutely no bearing on its veracity. If yoiu were really searching for a religious system which makes sense, you would base your choice on the religion's teachings, not on the places where it is practised.


I don't understand your concern about your childrens, either. Why would it be harmful for them if you don't believe of if you're an agnostic? Actually, what could be confusing for them is your current stance. You're sending weirdly mixed messages to them, IMO (and anyway they'll make their mind themselves, eventually).

[clairobscur]

Oh...And regarding the question : "why can't I believe in some of the christian teachings", the reason seems obvious to me : because these teachings just don't make sense, when closely considered. And it seems you came to the same conclusion than me, but still refuse to accept this conclusion for some reason I can't fathom. Your real question, IMHO, shouldn't be "why can't I believe?" but "why do I want so much to believe despite not finding any reason to do so?"

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by il Topo
[b]I guess my proposed “Great Debate” is:
Does God ever give up on someone?

Never! The lost sheep? Every knee shall bow? I will draw all men unto me? Death has been conquered and can no longer separate us from God.

When should a person searching for God give up?

Okay so you have a problem believing something you can't see. Big deal. If you rely on logic forget it. God does not exist logically. Faith? Unless it is real it is useless. When Christ says "I am the way", and" believe on me" he is referring to his exhortation to love, his philosophy, his Deity for authority, not for the belief in his existance. Remember he was visible in the flesh at the time these words were first uttered. All I'm saying is He'll find you (shephard after lost sheep) Meantime, check out his messages of love in the gospels, because that is where his word is.

Or, more personally, in spite of my efforts, why don’t I have faith???

Don't you have faith in His message of love ?

I’m trying to believe in the Christian god, but it just isn’t working.

No point in flogging a dead horse is there. I doubt He's all that concerned that you doubt his existance.Relax man.

and if he exists I can’t help but wonder why he hides from me.

Your time will come. You've got lots of time.

[Mr. Frink]

Originally posted by il Topo
My time for that kind of experimentation, as interesting as it might be, was up once I started having kids.

I don't really agree with your stance here. I don't see why one's spiritual growth need end with the start of a family. It seem to me that one could benefit the most through spiritual exploration at this point in one's life.

Originally posted by Gozu
[slight hijack]
And for the record. What's the deal with the whole pagan/wicca movement? Next thing you know, you'll have people worshipping Zeus or Odin...religion is not fashion. Once it's dead, it's dead!
[ok..it was a major hijack...sorry]

Wow. Sound like you really lack understanding of the "whole pagan/wicca movement". You're right, religion is not fashion. But a person's spirituality is a living thing. Just because you've pronounced it "dead" does not lessen its vitality in the spritual lives of countless people.

[Pantone Swatchbook]

Trust me, Cthulu has not abandoned you. When he rises again from the depths of R'leyh, you shall be remembered for your dedication.

[Aslan]

No. He doesn't.

We give up on ourselves. Please don't believe the chick tracts.

[adamant]

Don't worry, seek Him and you will find Him.
God never gives up, God always wins (He cheats if He wants to)

John Wesley (founder of Methodism) was one of many theologians who believed in universal salvation, the idea that God eventually saves everyone in some way or other.

God Bless and good luck!

[yanx4ever]

God's love is eternal and He never gives up on anyone. You will find Him in time...

I believe God loves every person, even Hitler and Bin Laden. Obviously He is very unhappy with what they do, but He hates sin and loves the sinners. When you start accepting God's love you will find your faith. Remember what He did on Good Friday for you? Face it, He loves you!

[Czarcasm]

The trouble I find with the philosophy of blind faith, or "knowing without seeing", is the hypocracy of applying it to religion only. If you can accept, without any physical evidence, the possibility of there being an all-powerful being that created the whole universe with no effort, why not believe in ESP, flying saucers, time travel, water witching or any other dubious claim that someone else makes?
As far as how long you should search for God goes, all the quotes about how your god doesn't give up on you have null value if you do not believe such a god exists in the first place. It boils down to saying "If you look hard enough, you will find it!", which can be applied to any situation, sometimes to disasterous results.

[il Topo]

Originally posted by clairobscur
Honnestly, your post puzzles me. If you don't believe, why have you been actively trying (as opposed to for instance wondering wether there could be a god or not, which would make sense) to believe for such a long time instead of saying : "well, I just don't believe".

These are fair questions, clairobscur.

I did rest for a time in a fairly strong, and even comfortable agnostic state. In fact, I survived a terrible tragedy in that godless state, and even in my foxhole I wasn't driven to God.

However, I was raised a very devout Catholic, so that particular approach to life is ingrained in me--it too has a certain comfort. Also, my extended family is very devout Catholic, and I value my family and their beliefs, if only because they hold them. In a purely agnostic state, my family is one of the most important things to me¼in fact, family is the second most important value to me just behind non-aggression. So even if there is no God and God ceases to be of importance to me personally, God still remains important since he is important to my family.

Kinda crazy, huh?

Any way, it works for them, so every now and then I try give it the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps this is a mistake, but I am willing to spend the time on it.

Originally posted by clairobscur
Same with your response re checking other religions. If there's one religion which is right, the fact that it is or it is not the religion of your forefather has absolutely no bearing on its veracity. If yoiu were really searching for a religious system which makes sense, you would base your choice on the religion's teachings, not on the places where it is practised.

I don’t have a great, preset answer to this question, which perhaps should be an indication of the weakness of my position. I’ll give it a shot though.

I have a theory: if God is worthy of worship, then he won't condemn everyone but the followers of a single faith. That is, if only one faith is correct, and that is the only way to be saved, then even I see the injustice of that, so that possibility is not really relevant. Why would I want to worship a God that is morally inferior to me?

That God, if he's there, likely reveals himself in different ways to different peoples in different times. Thus, there may be some truth in every faith, some overarching principles we can all latch onto, but the revelations made to my forefathers are generally more valid for me than those made to others if you assume God had a plan in all this. This is totally not in line with Catholicism, but this is what I get when I consider the validity of other religions. I end up coming back to Catholicism. Again, kinda weird, eh?

Originally posted by clairobscur
I don't understand your concern about your childrens, either. Why would it be harmful for them if you don't believe of if you're an agnostic? Actually, what could be confusing for them is your current stance. You're sending weirdly mixed messages to them, IMO (and anyway they'll make their mind themselves, eventually).

True. I need to make up my mind. In the meantime, I provide them with a moral code based on non-aggression, family and good works. They get exposure to religion from the rest of the family (and a little from me). I'm afraid a lukewarm approach to religion would be worse than a whole-hog approach or even none at all. I don't want to confuse them.

[il Topo]

Originally posted by grienspace
Okay so you have a problem believing something you can't see. Big deal. If you rely on logic forget it. God does not exist logically. Faith? Unless it is real it is useless. When Christ says "I am the way", and" believe on me" he is referring to his exhortation to love, his philosophy, his Deity for authority, not for the belief in his existance. Remember he was visible in the flesh at the time these words were first uttered....

I hope you are right.

Don't you have faith in His message of love ?

You tell me. I live according to his wishes (as expressed in the Gospels) when I interact with other people. But I'm not doing so well on the first three commandments and many church-created/interpreted rules which provide more specific spiritual obligations.

No point in flogging a dead horse is there. I doubt He's all that concerned that you doubt his existance.Relax man.

I always figured God was also "all-self-confident" so why would he want/require my worship. Rather, wouldn't he be more results oriented? Why would he "sweat the small stuff?" Churches here on earth usually do sweat the small stuff, though.

[aquariusrhimme]

Originally posted by il Topo

I suppose I've discounted the whole "try other religions thing" as a possibility for me. If the religion of my forefathers isn't good enough, I don't want to waste time trying on all the other religions of the world. That would really be confusing for my kids, no?

If the religion of your forefather isn't good enough, then that should be more than enough reason to learn about other religions (assuming, of course, that you need/want a religion). My boyfriend's mom used this excuse on him when he changed his faith from Catholic to Buddhist. His reply to her was: "So if you and dad were Satanists, then I should just stay a satanist because you were?" She said that was different (regardless of the fact that it was exactly the same issue). In any case, as Drastic put it, trying new religions and learning about other religions are different acts. Learning about them will, if anything, aid you in understanding others' beliefs. If in the end, you feel Christianity must be the way but see no appeal in the organized aspect, then be agnostic, read the bible, just be a good person and believe in God. Maybe everyone's view is wrong and there is a God, he just doesn't behave the way we thought he did.

Originally posted by il Topo
Truth be told, I'm not in this for my own personal peace of mind

Why not? This should be the reason to involve oneself in a religion. Religion should empower someone to be a good person, to be true to themselves and the aid them in achieving a personal good feeling of spirituality. Peop,le should feel comfortable in a religion.

Originally posted by il Topo
Rather, I really want to resolve these issues for the benefit for my children. I know a guy who changes religion every 3-5 years. My time for that kind of experimentation, as interesting as it might be, was up once I started having kids.

Religious and spiritual belief should be ever-evolving. It is the only way to truly grow and understand yourself and your beliefs. Experiement all that is necessary to find the truth for yourself. Teach your kids to be good people. Teaching your kids to be open-minded and good will be more beneficial to them than to instruct them to follow one path just for the sake of following a path.

Originally posted by Gozu

[slight hijack]
And for the record. What's the deal with the whole pagan/wicca movement? Next thing you know, you'll have people worshipping Zeus or Odin...religion is not fashion. Once it's dead, it's dead!
[ok..it was a major hijack...sorry]

As for you....there are some people who have decided to follow zeus, odin and a plethora of other ancients gods/goddesses...but that aside....Perchance people have 'rediscovered' the old earth religions because they find that it gives them a better sense of well-being and goodness than do the judeo-christian religions. Perhaps they dislike the hypocrisy and hatred that runs rampant throughout them. Maybe they like the freedom to be themselves, to love themselves, and to follow their own spiritual path. Regardless, it is their choice and it feels right to them. And for the record, the earth-based religions never 'died' per se, they were practiced in private by a small amount of people, as practicing them openly would get a person hanged, stoned or drowned (Which was usually more than enough incentive for someone to just agree to 'swing the other way' regarding religions).

[Personal Aside and Rant] My philosophy of religion course states one of the reasons to believe in the Christian God as: "If their isn't a God, isn't a glorious afterlife in heaven, then you lose nothing in believing in God. However, if there is, and you choose not to, then you lose everything, . If you choose to believe and there is a God and a heaven, then you gain everything."

This, I don't follow nor agree with. I don't believe that I should feel horribly about myself in life, feel that my personal beliefs, orientation, lifestyle, etc is wrong or horrible. I try my best to be a good person, to be kind, but I truly walk my own path. If my sense of good is different from God's (if there is one) sense of good. Then so be it. I hurt no one while I'm alive, and I actively care for people while I'm alive, so far it's working out for me. If I 'burn in hell' because I'm a good person but don't follow 'God' then so be it. This'll only prove that he's the one with major psychological issues that he requires the worshipping and love of humans. [/Personal Aside and Rant]