well i’ve been pretty much talking to God ever since i was a kid, i mean “help me God”, “get me out of this mess God”,“thankyou God” etc. But i don’t believe in him which is the funny part.
I think i believe in him 'cos i want to, but can’t 'cos i don’t. Well i’m confused and i always have been. I am neither religious nor atheist, just a person hanging in between or moving to and fro.
Presuming the Christian God is what you would like to know more about, might I suggest The Gospel of John as a good starting point to give yourself more information?
Prof. Dumbledore, it sounds like you want to have it both ways. You don’t believe God exists, yet you want to be able to call upon some “higher power” to help you out whenever you get in a jam.
Which is more empowering to you – thinking that some heavy-handed god is on your side making things go your way from time to time, or thinking that you got yourself out of those tough scrapes, by a combination of good luck and your own ingenuity?
Ah, no. Which is more dangerous to you – relying on God or relying on your own vain pride which might get you into a situation you can’t get yourself out of?
Two questions for the Professor:
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How old are you? Not being insulting—just curious.
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Why do you “want” to be religious?
…Just not for the same reasons.
I’m quite comfortable with my agnostic outlook.
I do, however, envy people who can use religion/God as a comfort blanket. I always thought it must be nice to so easily shrug off the crap that lands on everyone eventually.
Unfortunately I get no easy ways out and am unable to dump my load of problems on some deity. Just not how I work (I subscribe to what tracer said about relying on yourself).
So why are you looking Prof. Dumbledore? If you find you have a gaping hole in your life and think that religion/God can fill it then fine. Read-up, search around, talk to friends, whatever and see if anything works for you. Personally I wouldn’t restrict myself to strictly Christian based religions but that’s up to you. Who knows, maybe something will present itself that you like. However, don’t be surprised or disappointed if nothing works for you either.
Whatever happens you’ll probably be better off for having done the search and knowing for yourself where you stand and why you stand there.
Good luck.
jmullaney wrote:
“Relying on God” is definitely more dangerous:
“Honey, STOP! You’re driving on the wrong side of the freeway!!”
“Don’t worry, God will protect us!” CRASSSSSH!
Dammit, tracer, you beat me to it.
Kind of gives a new meaning to those “God is my Co-Pilot” bumper stickers, doesn’t it?
Ease up. You can’t force it. In-between is what a lot of people are, some forever and some for just a while.
David B wrote:
Or to those “In case of rapture, this vehicle will be unmanned” bumper stickers. It means that if the rapture does occur, there are going to be all these speeding cars careening out-of-control with no drivers, smashing into curbs and buildings and the occasional pedestrian. (And if your car kills a pedestrian when you’re raptured from it, are you responsible? Does that make you a murderer? Will your ticket to heaven be revoked for committing the sin of murder, resulting in your being put back in your car after it’s been smashed into a crumpled heap? If you die as a result of being put back in your car without having confessed the murder you just committed to a priest, will you go to hell, or just get an extended stay in purgatory? These are important questions, people!)
Hey, if God is the one who pulls you out of the car while you’re driving, and that car kills a pedestrian, it seems to me that God is the murderer, not the ex-driver.
It’s strange how many people are unable to tell the difference between self-confidence and vanity.
It’s also kind of strange the way those same people end up rationalizing why God didn’t bother to help them out of a situation, saying things like “Oh it is his will” or “It was a test of my faith.” I’ll stick with self-confidence and/or vanity myself.
Religious people are a funny sort. Of course, some atheists are kind of nutty too.
(Present company excluded)
The internal contradictions of so many of the major religions intrinsically disallow my faith in them.
Prof, if you would like to know why you continue to call upon a higher power in difficult situations, please refer to the book;
[sub]
THE ORIGINS OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BICAMERAL MIND
[/sub]
It was written by Julian Jaynes. As he explains the evolution of consciousness in homo sapiens he also does a magnificent job of isolating the sources and continuing reasons for religious faith. Look for the term, “divine authorization”.
If the reason that you are unable to adopt religion seriously is due to the fact that total abandonment of your determinative faculties to an incompletely identified entity goes against your sensibilities, then you’re in good company here. Read the book and you will never look upon history or religion the same ever again.
Wow!!!from copilots to bumper stickers and raptured vehicles, you guys really had me thinking there. Okie dokie, i think its time to answer your queries and stuff, so i will, one by one:
jmullaney:
I went to the link you showed me but that “seek the light” and “hallellujah” stuff just doesn’t work for me i’m afraid.
Plus its not imformation that i seek. I know quite a lot about a lot of religions. In fact i have been interested in religion from the beginning and i have pretty much studied the pros and cons of a lot of them, in fact 'cos of this curiosity i even a pretty detailed study of satanism which would kinda mean that i am looking for something else i guess.
Your second post really had me stumbled. i just didn’t get it until it was commented upon, after which i must say that i still don’t get it, it just doesn’t seem like a sound way to choose your religion.
tracer:
Your first post really made sense, 'cos its exactly what i feel. I do wanna have it both ways.
About the empowering part. I guess that it doesn’t matter which is more empowering to me. You see its not about feeling powerful. Here it gets confusing you see in my view, if i were accepting religion as a means of comfort, then i might as well become an atheist 'cos i would be fooling myself.
The reason for this is 'cos if i believe choose to believe in God then it would be 'cos i do believe in him and not 'cos believing in him will give me a source of comfort. You see if God exists then it doesn’t matter what i believe, he is there and i would wanna believe in him. If he doesn’t exist and i do believe in him then i am leading my whole life as a damn fool.
If you die as a result of being put back in your car without having confessed the murder you just committed to a priest, will you go to hell, or just get an extended stay in purgatory?
The whole confessing to the priest thing was started in medieval times where priests issued pardons for money, though its a good idea and i think that by confessing God will forgive you, but i don’t think its important to confess to a priest, just really feel the pain of what you’ve done, if you feel truly ashamed then God should forgive you himself, instead of relying on some priest to do the honors.
Eve:
Good questions. Hope i get 'em right:
1)I am 20 years old and a computer science major.
2)I want to be religious 'cos i am hanging in between belief and disbelief. I don’t want to live in a contradiction. I don’t want to be a contradiction. I guess i’d rather eb religious 'cos its the more comforting of the two, but i can’t be 'cos i feel certain things that make me not believe in God.
Jeff_42
I guess the above would answer you too and believe me i have searched a lot.
super_head
I don’t wanna be nutty, in fact i am utterly amazed at how people can be so nutty, i guess its because they are probably so addicted to the comfort that religion brings. Its like a drug to them and they are just high all the time.
Zenster:
The internal contradictions of so many of the major religions intrinsically disallow my faith in them.
Same here, but of these religions some also have a strong base like for example: Islam has a very strong base and sound explanations for some stuff that is pretty confusing in christianity. However the contradiction to me lies not in the religion but in my belief/disbelief in God.
I’ll definitely get hold of the book.
I used to be like that, then i became an agonistic. Then I became a christan.
My advice would be to try a leap of faith in one direction or the other. Just not both at the same time:)
The pros and cons for whom? Christianity merely offers you the option to not be a slave to man and your own desires while being joyfully happy serving God. The con is not being a part of the world, but the world is fleeting anyway.
Well, people who build their house upon sand do get a good view of the beach. 
Your situation looks like me midway between my transformation from believer to atheist. I didn’t want to stop believeing, but the belief simply did not hold up to scrutiny for me. If it were up to me to be able to choose a belief and then just believe it, I think I’d like to be a Polycarp, a Libertarian, or a [b}Triskadecamus**. Do some searches on those names and read their comments in the religious threads. There are a lot of them in GD, (and I should warn you that Libertarian is rather cryptic most of the time, so it may be a while before you unravel what he is saying.) I would hold them up as examples of very reasonable theists.
From one Doctor to the next…
Give yourself another 8 years. That’s how long it took me, anyway, to wrestle this one to the ground.
Now I am happily conflicted…
Wombat, kiosk, credenza, balloon!
One of my most frequent prayers is the one from Mark 9:24, “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”
I have struggled with this, and do, often and for a long time. I remember that reading William James’ essay, “The Will to Believe,” helped me somewhat. You have to keep in mind that he is not offering an argument for belief, merely a justification for it. If you believe, it will not be because of any argument or evidence, but because you have to.
There was a time, up until a few hundred years ago, when religion seemed to provide answers about the world that other methods could not yet find. That is no longer the case. We no longer “need” God (or a god) to explain why rain falls when it does, or why a certain nation wins a war. The skeptics are right; materialism is an entirely consistant and nearly complete philosophical view, and where it lacks, theism is not always much help. Because of this, many inteligent people who understand science and materialism see religion as intellectually unfounded, an unnecessary and baseless superstition which fails to take into account the fullness of human knowledge.
If you have a longing in your heart that knowledge cannot fill, these arguments will leave you conflicted. You will try to satisfy yourself with rational science and understanding and find yourself more conflicted than ever. Something is missing.
If you find yourself with these experiences, you are not alone. Religion may be full of superstition which science now makes moot, but there has always been a deeper stream running through religious history. Religious traditions are fellowships of those who have experienced that longing in the heart and those who affirm it. They record the experiences of those who have felt that longing, and those who have felt it satisfied. That which satisfied it completely, some traditions called God.
Belief comes, I find, not from reason, but from the realization that only by believing can you find peace. I believe because when I believe, I am a better person. Epistemologically, this is very unsatisfying. Deep-thinking theistic philosophers may help you to rationalize this, or make it seem less unpalatable, but it must be accepted. There IS no reason to believe, except that I choose. There is no other choice I could live by. I often fear that I am deluding myself, that some day, I will snap out of it, and realize how foolish I’ve been to waste all this time and worry on something unreal, but I keep praying just the same. If I am wrong, I choose to be wrong, because I am better for my mistake, and I am happier with it. Here I stand. I can do no other.