Due to Near Death Experiences, life after death has been proven.
Does this mean that God’s existence has been proven or not?
:rolleyes:
I realize there are still skeptics on the issue of life after death, but many, including scientists, are accepting that consciousness does continue after physical death. This is a very important question and deserves some research by all.
How would NDE’s prove or disprove the existance of a god? This seems to be another case of evidence that supports a god only if you already believe in said god.
This is not to say that research in this area couldn’t prove interesting. It might be hard to find volunteers for a clinical study though. 
that website hardly qualifies as “proof”. The neuroscientists I know (and I do know a few) can make a very plausible case for near-death experiences resulting from neural shutdown and restart.
Of the dozen or so patients I’ve personally cared for when they were pulseless non-breathers who got pulled back into this world, none reported a NDE.
Well Rug Burn, if we accept NDE as fact (a big if) then all one has to do is die and go looking for him…if God is to be found, walla!
I agree with Qadgop on the “proof” issue. I also agree that a lot more research should be done.
To me it’s the most important thing we could be researching…I mean think about it, most diseases lead to death, right? Well we can skip studying the diseases if we find out that there is a happy go lucky death realm where we can all hang out and chill, right?
So what if one’s conscience lives on after “physical” death? It makes just as much sense to me that the brain still functions as long as the environment to keep it running - even at a lowered or different state - exists. Why assume that the brain dies right when the body dies (and by that I mean when respiration and the heart cease to function)? Why assume that any experience in this state is one of a “dead” person? We already know that the brain can continue to function for several minutes when deprived of oxygen. At lower temperature the length of time is considerably longer.
I guess my take on NDEs is that it is a natural experience that happens because of the nature of our biology, not through Divine intervention. The site referred to in the original OP seems of dubious merit to me as well.
Sometimes we can’t trust our own experiences (and those of others) because our brains can distort reality quite readily. Many people who you would see as mentally ill and out of touch with reality don’t personally feel like their reality is wrong (and the philosophical considerations of that dynamic would make a decent thread in itself). Take LSD and see if you realize that your altered states are only tricks of brain chemistry. Brain tumor. Aneurysm. All of these can change one’s perceptions of reality. So why are people so eager to chalk up NDEs as anything other than an altered state of their reality. It seems real, so it must be.
Not always is my assertion…, not always.
damn - and here I was hoping that we would finally have proven whether god (assumed to be Xtian, right? always Xtian) existed.
damn, we’ll probably never know, now…
Happyheathen-Oh I wouldn’t say you will NEVER know…I mean there is one final test on this ball of clay we call earth. It’s not a take home final either.
“that website hardly qualifies as “proof”. The neuroscientists I know (and I do know a few) can make a very plausible case for near-death experiences resulting from neural shutdown and restart.”
The proof is not in contention. There were a whole battery of doctors in attendance at the surgery. The surgery was two hours long. Wake up and actually read the material. Anyone still believing what happens in NDEs is biological is just in denial.
The question was is there a God?
Good grief, lekatt! Nebulous claims by an “anonymous writer” followed by statements like “Acknowledge the proof, or present biological evidence to the contrary” in your cite have no credibility at all! No other sources are cited, other than newspaper accounts. No links to reputable journals or studies, no peer-reviewed literature, just clap-trap wishful thinking statements like:
Nothing is proven here. They’re building sandcastles founded on their own desires to believe.
Hey, I’d love to read some compelling evidence of continuation of consciousness after death. I hope there is some sort of afterlife. But I’m also a physician who was trained as a medical scientist, and I know junk science when I see it. And you showed it to me in your link.
QtM, MD
Lekatt-if the “The proof is not in contention” then do you mind showing us a lot more of this “proof”?
You realize that you are arguing biology with a medical doctor, right? (Qadgop is the doctor, not me. Check the last paragraph of his last post.) I read the material, in spite of the sloppy spelling, punctuation and grammar (a nitpick, I know, but if it’s going to be taken seriously, it really should be proofread before publishing). The report could be taken as evidence for something supernatural, but is certainly not proof. I suspect that the more one knows about neurology, the weaker the evidence would appear.
Stimulating the brain doesn’t correlate very well with stimulating the knobs on a television. The television is connected to a broadcasting station, receiving signals through the air or through cables. Pretty amazing, but easily explained by those who understand the technology. We know of no such connection in the case of the brain.
If the experience was reported accurately, and if it were proven that there was no neurological cause, it still wouldn’t prove the existence of God; it would suggest that there is some other cause that has not yet been found. Humans are constantly finding natural explanations for phenomena that were once thought to be supernatural in origin. The fact that we don’t know everything yet does not prove God. And in science, proof is always potentially in contention.
It sounds a lot like you have already decided that NDEs are proof of God and you refuse to listen to anyone disagree with you. Did you think that we would all be struck by the “facts” in your link and then feel compelled to admit that “I didn’t believe in NDEs in the past, but thanks lekatt, now I have seen the light”? (no pun intended).
I think at best you are naive about the issue, and at worst trolling just to cause debate. Let’s first start with “Are NDEs explained only by the Divine, or are there other, and perhaps better, explanations?”. Then we can move on to debating whether that has any impact on the “God/No God” debate.
Me thinks you aren’t interested in challenging your preconceptions about NDEs and the existence of God. Remember, we are fighting ignorance here, not replacing it with “Anyone still believing what happens in NDEs is biological is just in denial”.
Ok, just for the sake or argument, let’s suppose NDEs are in fact truly supernatural events. Why would this prove God exists? It might prove that a soul, or something like a soul, exists. But it says little about God.
lekatt,
As far as threads are concerned, you have proven that reincarnation is a fact.
The ancient Greeks believed in an afterlife, but were not monotheistic.
Buddhists and Hindus believe in reincarnation but are not monotheistic.
Ahhh…, as I suspected. lekatt=troll. Did you think a new thread would give your position more credibility? If I was for promoting NDEs, I don’t think I would want you on my side. Your attempt at evangelizing the concept is just making it look like new-age claptrap.
I suggest that you take the advice of a lot of Dopers in both threads and review your position and the facts that back it up. When you are ready to actually make a case for your position, I think people (myself at least) will be more likely to debate the points you bring up. Until then, it’s hard to take you seriously.
If NDEs are infallible proof of some kind of life/consciousness after death, then why would they occur on people who are not going to die if they are supernatural? I mean, wouldn’t it be an argument against God? Why is God making all these mistakes if he doesn’t want to come out and outrightly show his/her existence and the existence of such an afterlife?
Besides which, why can they reproduce NDE phenomena in astronaut training using higher G-forces, when the person is nowhere near death at all?
But, to answer Revtim, I agree. Even if you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that consciousness persists after death, it doesn’t really say anything about gods. It does not point to the existence of the Christian God at all (as if that were the only option) which is what I presume the OP is pointing to. The Christian belief system certainly has no monopoly on the idea of an afterlife or a soul.
[little tidbit]
I watched “Dragonfly” tonite on video and there was a part where a character was explaining how an anesthesiologist said that the brain has 100 layers of consciousness from being awake to being dead. When you go “under” they only set you to about the 10th layer of consciousness, which leaves 90 layers open for NDE and things of that nature. There was more but the movie was over about an hour ago and I forgot what else was said.
(must be that 11th layer they call memory 
)
[/end of little tidbit]
I remember some experiments being done in I believe Sudbury or Guelph Ont Canada in which subjects where blindfolded and had different parts of their brain stimulated electrically.
The test subjects reported many of the same sensations and experiences of NDEs including feeling a presence, seeing a tunnel and a feeling of peace and love.
Damned if I can find the cite though.