The practice seems very common in the NYC area. - an American flag on one side and an Israeli flag on the other. What’s the deal? I find it troubling - Judaism is not the same thing as Zionism, is it? What allegience do American Jews and/or American Jewish institutions owe towards Israel?
Is this a regional phenomenon? A recent one? When I grew up in New England in the 70s and 80s, my temple had an American flag and the flag of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
And often, but not always, a Catholic Church will have the flag of the Vatican (which to be fair is also a sovereign state) hanging up alongside the American flag. It doesn’t mean that the people passing underneath that flag believe everything the Pope says, and don’t practice birth control and/or have the occasional divorce. But it does tie us in to a worldwide community of believers, reminding us to look beyond our comfortable American lives.
Maybe it’s the same thing here–Israel is going through a tough time with this current intifada, and whether or not American Jews agree that maybe some of its own policies aren’t making things any better, I’m sure they pretty much all agree that having innocent people being blown up in their buses and cafes is a horrible thing, and that’s probably what the flags are for.
The impression I get is that if you ask three Jews what their feelings and obligations are to Israel you’ll get five answers. 
Odd, I’ve never seen a Catholic church fly an American OR Vatican flag.
I should think it’s fairly obvious.
While it is true that Judiasm != Zionism (after all, there are religious Jews who are not Zionists), Israel is the Jewish state and, as such, many Jews feel a tie and kinship to Israel.
Zev Steinhardt
It’s been a while since I saw it, but I remember when it was common to have both flags on the type of poles that are carried in parades up at the side altars. They were not displayed along the wall, or anything, and when there was a patriotic service or a serviceman’s funeral the U.S. flag would sometimes be included in the train and when the K of C were having some ceremony, both would be carried. As they were “flown” on poles indoors where the wind could not stream them out, they were fairly inconspicuous.
Neither appears in my church or my Mom’s church. I think Deb’s parents’ church still has that, but that is a little country church that has made few changes since the 1960s and the flags probably haven’t been touched (except for cleaning) in years.
I don’t know about religious institutions, but I’m pretty sure you see a lot of guys displaying foreign flags on their cars and the like. Just some ethnic pride, or whatever.
I oppose the practice for religious reasons, but I don’t think it indicates any allegiance to (as opposed to symphathy for) Israel.
I don’t know… It might be different from shul to shul. In my shul, we have both flags. Every Shabbat we say a short prayer for Tzahal and for the well-being of the State of Israel, and since September 11 of last year, we’ve also said a prayer on behalf of the United States government, and for the United States Armed Forces.
Over the Three Weeks, we had a Tzedaka drive to raise $25,000 to buy a bullet-proof security van to be used as a schoolbus. Many of our members (who have enough money to do so) make a trip or two to Israel during the year.
I don’t know that we are particularly concerned with Israel’s politics as much as we are concerned that the land God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a place we strive to go. When members of our congregation make Aliya, we celebrate, and we look forward to the day we can join them.
By the way, the drive was successful.
Yeah, what I meant is that sometimes the flags are on poles, upright, in the darker back corners of the church, or waaay in the sides of the nave near the altar next to the tabernacle and the statue of St, Joseph with his T-square (so you know he was a carpenter, ya see). Sometimes they’re on flagpoles that come out of the choir loft. Much of the time there are indeed no flags, although all three NYC area churches I sometimes attend, depending on where I feel like commuting, have had American flags since 9/11.
This thread isn’t the place to air my ideas about the wisdom of using the Bible as a real estate manual, but good on your congregation, Harmonious, for getting the van for the kids. It’s a shame anybody should have to worry about stuff like that.
Our Church (RCC) flies both the US flag and the Croatian flag. It’s not like we are all about ‘Croatia Uber Alles’; It’s just a sign of respect for the ‘Old Country’.
Many jews are jew before all other identities. We have jews in the United States with dual citizenships. They are jews and Israelis first, and American citizens second. They believe that the United States exists soley to support the parasitic nation of Israel. Of course the Talmud teaches that we goyum only have human bodies because is is unfitting for a jew to be served by a beast. I do not trust any Jew with dual citizenship. One cannot serve two masters.
Wow, makes me want to curl up with a copy of The Protocols of Elder Zion…
Makes me want to vomit.
Makes me want to vomit on a copy of The Protocols of Elder Zion’s House of Pancakes or whatever it’s called.
Nice troll. But your post helps show what bothers me about the Israeli flag practice. It raises the specter of the sort of divided loyalties you describe.
Another example: As I recall, there was a case a few years ago of Jewish guy in the military who was caught turning secret stuff over to Israel. After the guy got thrown in the slammer, there were Jewish groups lobbying for his release.
I
My mainstream Protestant church has the American flag on one end of the platform and the so-called “Christian Flag” on the other end.
I don’t have any problem with that.
It’s no more a matter of divided loyalties than an Irish-American marching in the St. Patricks day Parade.
In any event, in places where I have seen the flags, it has always been according to Code (i.e. with the U.S. Flag in the rightmost position, and never with the Israeli flag higher than the U.S. flag)
Oh, and OWD looks like he’s going to join the ranks of POWER_station, Havel.2002, and my own personal favorite Sweet Willy.
Zev Steinhardt
Okay, serious question, even if it is a hijack:
The which, now?
I’ve never seen anything that professes to be a universal “Christian Flag” - I’m guessing it’s an image of the cross, but I’d genuinely like to know what’s what here. Is this what you’re talking about? (if so, can your superiog googleing skills find a better image?)
My apologies for the hijack.
Confirming that it’s common practice in Catholic churches to have both an American flag and a Vatican flag displayed.
I’m a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus – when we march as a uniformed Honor GUard, we have a four-flag color corps: US, Virginia, K of C, Vatican. The US flag is kept in the honor position at the left, and is the only flag we do not dip for salute. The Vatican flag, in other words, is treated exactly like our state flag and our organizational flag.
The Christian Flag (Warning: Here be bad auto-playing MIDI.)
I can’t remember ever attending a church that didn’t have one, somewhere. Only one ever taught the pledge of allegiance to it, though. I always found that terribly creepy.
[ /end hijack ]