Brutus

[yojimbo]

In the thread Rachel Corey in Gaza: it takes an American death..... you show a lack of humanity that stuns me.

Tragedy? The only tragedy here is that the Israelis will have to waste some water to clean off the treads of the 'dozer.

Malthus was an idiot who basically committed suicide. (May as well go walk on the freeway to prevent illegal speeding.)

Jesus Christ man. Whether you think she was wrong or not shouldn't matter. A young girl got crushed and you answer with this shit? Nobody's saying you have to agree with her but your comment was so beyond the pale it's not even under the influence of Earths gravity anymore.

This happened to a human being you piece of shit. Try being one yourself one day you may like it.

jjimm supplied a link with her emails home. Disagree with the woman all you want but to be so callous and flippant about this tragedy puts you in a very bad light IMO.
YMMV unfortunately

[tiny ham]

Disgusting and tasteless. Does anyone have a sense of decorum anymore? Just because you have the freedom to say anything doesn't mean you HAVE to.

[yojimbo]

I find it hard to see how he even thought it never mind type it.

[jjimm]

Feh. It's only Brutus. In place of a heart he has a rock. In place of a brain he has an inflated sheep's bladder. In place of considered opinions he trots out Coulteresque drivel. I gave up paying attention to him long ago.

[gobear]

Well, Brutus's comments were shocking in their lack of of humanity, but I have to agree that she committed suicide by standing in front of a bulldozer. Moreover, did she think that preserving a house was worth her life? Houses can be rebuilt, but people can't. She has caused her parents and friends immense grief through her act. She was so young, and her passion and idealism could have been channeled into more productive arenas than in being a martyr who will be forgotten in a few days.

[yojimbo]

and there's a perfectly good GD thread linked in the OP to argue that point

[gex gex]

From my thread on this, here

I don't care what you think of her actions or what your opinion is on Israeli politics, this is a fucking low down way to speak of someone who has just died. I cannot for the life of me work out why you feel the need to dismiss a human life like this. Did you think you were funny? What did you expect, hundreds of follow up posts saying "Congrats, Brutus, what wit, haha, stupid college girl deserved to have died"?

Fuck you, Brutus. Your flippant response wasn't funny, wasn't called for and was quite possibly very hurtful, considering that later in the thread, errata mentioned that he or she "knew that young woman."

This isn't a great rant, but I feel it doesn't need to be. Brutus' insensitivity speaks for itself. That was really low. I'm still shocked that someone could speak with such indifference about another human life, and phrase that indifference in such a sick way.

What is even more sickening is that other posters in that thread expressed similar feelings, though none so crudely and inhumanely as those of Brutus.

[tiny ham]

the point is gobear, that regardless of what he believes, he should practice just a touch of TACT AND DECORUM and perhaps have just a tad bit of respect for the dead and the dead's family.

[Homebrew]

I disagree, gobear. She was obviously wrong; but I'd guess she thought the bulldozer operator would refrain from murder. Houses can be torn down later, but murder victims can't be revived. The bulldozer operator has killed a person and caused the victim's parents and friends immense grief through his acts. Hopefully, she won't be forgotten by the bulldozer operator in a few days. Hopefully, the terrible reality of his murderous actions torments him for the rest of his life.

[gobear]

the point is gobear, that regardless of what he believes, he should practice just a touch of TACT AND DECORUM and perhaps have just a tad bit of respect for the dead and the dead's family

Absoultely agreed. That "cleaning off the treads" comment is sickening.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by gobear
I have to agree that she committed suicide by standing in front of a bulldozer.

Can't agree with you here, i'm afraid. Even the tanks in Tiananmen Square tried to go around that guy standing in their way (the Chinese government charitably waited until later to kill him). Unless that bulldozer was a robot with no human driver, this was not suicide. It was, at best, a terrible accident, and at worst, murder.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Homebrew
I disagree, gobear. She was obviously wrong; but I'd guess she thought the bulldozer operator would refrain from murder. Houses can be torn down later, but murder victims can't be revived. The bulldozer operator has killed a person and caused the victim's parents and friends immense grief through his acts. Hopefully, she won't be forgotten by the bulldozer operator in a few days.

I agree with Gobear and you 100% except for this last part

Hopefully, the terrible reality of his murderous actions torments him for the rest of his life.

I'm going to take a quote from Sam Stone in the other thread who think eloquently hit the nail on the head.

Here's an important thing to know, which I haven't seen mentioned - Do these protestors have a habit of standing in front of bulldozers, and then moving out of the way at the last minute?

If so, then this was probably an accident. In fact, this is a classic situation in which accidents happen - people do unsafe things, and get away with it. So they keep on doing it. They get more and more careless about it, until something happens they didn't expect, and by then everyone is so relaxed about it that something tragic happens before people wake up and realize something horrible has gone wrong.

Looking at the size of these bulldozers, it seems clear that, while the driver can probably see the protestor when he's 100 feet back, by the time he's close she wouldn't be visible behind the blade.

I wouldn't be surprised if both sides were 'negligent', in the sense that the 'Dozer operator was probably told, "Just keep going - they'll get out of the way", and in the past they have. And the protestors got more and more aggressive and put themselves in more risk - because they've managed to jump away in the past. So this time a pile shifts, a foot gets caught, and a tragedy happens.

I'd also add that a compounding factor is that the bulldozer operators are in a very dangerous environment. They can't just stop and get out to see if someone's in front of the blade, because a sniper could shoot them. In fact, stopping for any reason is probably dangerous - molotov coctails though the armored slit would ruin your day.

So... It's a high stress environment, with both sides being aggressive and reckless. Classic situation for an accident. But I see no evidence of murder.

[Revtim]

Only a piece of filth would say something like that. Fuck you Brutus, you leprous sack of shit. She could have the stupidest person on Earth, and to make the comment that "The only tragedy here is that the Israelis will have to waste some water to clean off the treads" when there are people mourning her loss, such as her certainly emotionally destoyed family, shows you not to be worth inclusion in the human race.

[Debaser]

Those sentiments would have meaning, Revtim if Brutus had said those things to her greiving family. Unless you have knowledge that her family are regular lurkers here on the SDMB, they don't have anything to do with his statements.

Do you feel the same way when reading "the Darwin awards"?

[Revtim]

He said "the only tragedy" was having to wash the treads. In other, words, her family and friends being emotionally destroyed by her death is not a tragedy.

It has nothing to do with whether they are reading the forum or not.

[Miller]

So correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but this girl just stood in front of an oncoming tractor and let it smash her into a damp spot in the sand? And I'm supposed to feel sorry for her? Sorry, no. I'm saving my pity for people who had terrible things happen to them through no fault of their own, not for people who had terrible things happen to them through their own mammoth stupidity.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by Miller
So correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but this girl just stood in front of an oncoming tractor and let it smash her into a damp spot in the sand? And I'm supposed to feel sorry for her? Sorry, no. I'm saving my pity for people who had terrible things happen to them through no fault of their own, not for people who had terrible things happen to them through their own mammoth stupidity.

From what I've heard, she tripped or stumbled before the Catapiller God claimed her soul. Other then that what you said appears accurate.

[carrot]

Originally posted by World Eater
From what I've heard, she tripped or stumbled before the Catapiller God claimed her soul. Other then that what you said appears accurate.

There seem to be some conflicting reports. Some say that she tripped, and some say she laid down. I haven't seen any with what you'd call "definitive" evidence, although it may be out there somewhere.

[FallenAngel]

Originally posted by mhendo
Can't agree with you here, i'm afraid. Even the tanks in Tiananmen Square tried to go around that guy standing in their way (the Chinese government charitably waited until later to kill him). Unless that bulldozer was a robot with no human driver, this was not suicide. It was, at best, a terrible accident, and at worst, murder.

This illustrates the fallacy of the "protesters" perfectly. As a friend of mine said on another board, "You cannot simultaneously demonize a group and expect their basic sense of humanity to save your life."

It was suicide, pure and simple, if only suicide by means of stupidity.

[World Eater]

Originally posted by carrot
There seem to be some conflicting reports. Some say that she tripped, and some say she laid down. I haven't seen any with what you'd call "definitive" evidence, although it may be out there somewhere.

Nor have I.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by FallenAngel
As a friend of mine said on another board, "You cannot simultaneously demonize a group and expect their basic sense of humanity to save your life."

Well, your friend is wrong. There is a considerable difference between "saving a life" and "not killing someone": it's not like the tractor driver was being asked to save Rachel Corrie from a burning building; all he had to do was not run over her. There is also a considerable difference between knocking down a house and running over a human being. By your logic, someone protesting against police brutality in the US has no cause for complaint if a cop shoots him dead for disobeying an order to disperse.

Also, what "group" are we talking about here? The protestors were not demonizing all Israelis; there are considerable numbers of Israelis who oppose the destruction of houses, and some who are actually part of the protests.

Also, having looked at the website of the International Solidarity Movement, under whose auspices the dead woman was protesting, i can find no evidence that any "group" is being demonized. There are claims about the use of force and violence by Israeli troops, and assertions regarding the illegality of these actions, but the type of demonizing you allege is not to be found. Nowhere is it claimed that the Israelis, or even the Israeli armed forces, are inhuman. The ISM simply states that it believes in the right of Palestinians to use force to resist Israeli actions, but that the ISM's own tactics will be non-violent.

I'm not claiming that the driver intentionally ran over the woman. I wasn't there, and am perfectly willing to believe that it was nothing but a tragic accident. But implying that this was suicide, and/or that she somehow deserves no compassion is, IMO, pretty repugnant.

[leander]

Brutus is a prick, but only a little prick. Not really intelligent enough to worry about; usually just does a drive-by and runs away.