Ok, first of all, this isn’t the Pit or even GD. I’m not interested in a major debate of Israeli or Mid-East politics and history. I will however be happy to discuss how living here affects me personally and my personal opinions about the situation.
And one more caveat (since I think I did this once before), if for some reason I don’t respond to a particular post, or even stop responding to the thead in general, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t have anything to say, or I agree with whatever someone wrote - I probably just have work to do.
A little background - I’m an American immigrant to Israel, my wife and I have lived in the country for almost seven years, and we moved to Efrat in the fall of 2000 (around when the current intifada started). We have three young children. Efrat is just south of Bethlehem and about 15 minutes from Jerusalem, where I work.
Ok, I guess that’s enough to start with. Ask away!
There was a leader of a settler’s group interviewed on UK TV who said that his organization would protest as much as possible within the confines of Israeli law, but that if the law concluded that eviction was necessary, they would respect it. How widespread is that view? What, in your estimation, is the proportion of settlers who would react violently against the government if forced evictions began?
Oh, and another question - you refer to yourself as a “Jewish” settler rather than an “Israeli” one. Is this just a shorthand, or do you consider that you’re there by dint of your religion rather than your (pesumed) Israeli citizenship?
First of all, I think it would be very hard to find anyone anywhere who would admit they are irrational. Secondly, most people don’t want to move away from the land they live on. So I’ll put the question back at you - what do you mean by irrational? Are you saying that anyone committed to holding on any land is irrational, or that anyone committed to holding on to this land is irrational, or being committed to holding on to land is not itself irrational, but that the settlers who do it here are?
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Efrat is primarily religious, and I am in fact and Orthodox Jew.
Do you drive to work in Jerusalem? What sort of security do you have to pass through to get into the city? Do you use the same security outposts as Palestinian residens of Efrat, or is there a different way in for settlers?
thanks for starting this thread curwin, I hope this post finds you in good health and cheer.
I’ll try not to be confrontive, but what about the people who lived and worked the land where Efrat is before the settlers arrived? If there were people there, was it ok for them to be moved off so that the settlement could be built, and was it rational for them to be evicted so that the settlement could be built?
I’m going to research more on Efrat itself, so feel free to correct me with regards to the Efrat settlement.
This is a common question, and it doesn’t have an easy answer. If the government decided to evacuate all settlements tomorrow -there would likely be strong protest, perhaps even violent. But that’s not likely. If existing settlements will be evacuated, it will probably be after the current peace process has progressed significantly. If it seems to the Israeli public that the Palestinians really have abandoned the path of terror, end the incitement and are willing to live with us in peace, than I can see a lot of people willingly give up some of the settlements. On the other hand, if it seems that giving up the settlements just means appeasing terrorists and encouraging more violence and hate, then many people will use the opposition to evacuating any settlement as a way of protesting the entire process. It also depends on other factors - what level of parlimentary support there is for such a move, if the US, EU, the Arab countries, etc make it more worthwhile by sweetening the pot, whether all settlements are evacuated or only some, etc.
I mostly just used the expression because that is the most common phrase used in the Western media. The truth is, most of the time I don’t think of myself as a settler, but rather an Israeli or a Jew. Or just a guy.
But I presume at some point in the last 7 years you and your family made a conscious decision to become “a settler”. If you don’t mind me asking, what was the impetus to do this? Was it for financial, political, religious - or other - reasons?
I’ve listened to reports on NPR about how the settlements can affect Palestinians. This one comes to mind: A Palestinian farmer had acres of (olive?) trees. When a settlement went up, the Israeli security forces declared his property a “free fire zone”. Now the farmer cannot get to his trees – which are on his land – because if he sets foot on his own property he may be shot. In the U.S. this would be a violation of the Constitutional protection from having one’s property seized without due process and fair compensation.
Given that (from what I’ve heard, at any rate) the majority of Palestinians in Israel are peaceful, how do you feel about those Palestinians who are diplaced – in the case of the farmer I heard about on NPR, whose livlihoods are taken away – by these settlements?
Given the fact that my interest goes from " What’s it all about, Alfie?" to " ahh hell, they are at it again." in a microsecond, you’ve actually caught me on the former mood.
Forgive me for any glaring gaps of pure ignorance that might shine through. I was raised Catholic. We were taught everyone else is just inferior. I’ve been in recovery for years
So, you’ve been there since 2000.
Are you still American?
2)Are you in the process of changing your nationality?
How old are your children?
What are the schools like there for them?
What do you do for a living?
What is your neighborhood like? Tightly knit or people too busy with day to day lives to get involved?
7)And an easy one, what is the weather like today?
Add me to jjimm’s query - why did you choose to move to a settlement? What do you “get” from your chosen residence that you could not have gotten elsewhere?
I’m going to show some real ignorance here and I’d like to apologize for it beforehand. Is there a distinguishable difference between the appearance of your average Israeli and average Palestinian? I ask this in relation to whether or not there are times that you might see an individual, recognize him as Palestinian and experience fear that this person might be a suicide bomber. Again, sorry but I have no experience in these matters.
I don’t drive (I don’t actually have a driver’s license, but that’s another thread - a leftover from my days in America.) When there were a number of shootings on the road to Jerusalem, I tried to be careful to take the bulletproof bus (which I’m sure my mother thinks I still do, so shhhh…), but the roads have been quiet for the past year, so now I mostly hitchhike (much more common in Israel than America.)
While the checkpoints can cause occasional traffic backup, Israelis aren’t checked as carefully as Palestinians. This makes sense in the idea that the Israelis are Israeli citizens, while the Palestinians are not. Israeli Arabs, for example, don’t have a problem going to and from the territories to Israel. This is on the bypass roads though - Israelis do not travel on the roads that the Palestinians exclusively use - particularly the ones that go through Palestinian cities and refugee camps.
Also, there aren’t really any Palestinian residents of Efrat, but they live in the surrounding villages - Wadi Nis, El Hader, Bethlehem, etc. Before the current intifada there were actually rather friendly relations between Wadi Nis and Efrat - people would go to each others weddings, bar mitzvas, etc. And even now some settlers make an effort to provide food to some of the Wadi Nis residents whose livelihood has been affected by the intifiada - but not all residents of Efrat agree with this.
This is a big misconception. If you drive around the West Bank today, you’ll see that the vast majority of the land, particulary the hills, is completely unsettled, and not used for agricultural purposes either. When you see the vast open spaces, it’s really hard to understand how people don’t think there’s room for everyone.
Also, it should be noted that a number of settlements, particularly those built in the Gush Etzion area (which Efrat is part of) were built on land owned by Jews prior to the 1948 war, when Jordan conquered the West Bank.
When we first moved to Israel we lived in a kibbutz in the center of the country. While I supported the settlement movement, I never felt a need to pack up and move there. But when we left the kibbutz, we were looking for a place near Jerusalem (for work purposes) and Efrat made sense. Also, we have friends and family in the neighborhood. which made it easier. So initially it was for practical purposes, but now I really feel like I’m doing my part for Israel, and I can’t see myself living anywhere but Efrat.
Friends of ours who had hoped we would have moved to their town (not in the territories) said that had we left the kibbutz after the beginning of the intifada, we never would have ended up in Efrat. That’s probably true, but I’m really glad it worked out the way it did.
