my only Israel thread

Great Debates
1

From what I’ve seen, I’m the only person currently living in Israel to be posting on the board - at least regularly. A couple of months ago, I found work again after a six month period of unemployment, so my time for the board is more limited. I find now that there are dozens of Mideast / Israel threads on a number of forums on the board now, with large number of replies on each. I can’t keep up with them – I can’t even try.

While I don’t think I have the only voice worth listening to, I think a local perspective is important here. So I’ll offer this thread for answering questions and debating issues related to the issue. I’m not going to relate to other threads, so limit the cross references.

Here’s a little background: I grew up in the US, and moved to Israel almost 6 years ago. I live in Efrat, a Jewish settlement just south of Bethlehem, in the West Bank. I am an Orthodox Jew. I have a pretty good knowledge of history, current affairs and politics and religion.

First of all, I believe that Jews have a right to live anywhere they want. If I can live just south of Bethlehem, PA, I can certainly live just south of Bethlehem, Israel. I don’t believe that Israel needs to “do” anything to force the world to recognize it. We – the Jewish people – have been here a very long time. We never gave up the right to come back.

Before the current conflict, in the Camp David talks in the summer of 2000, I said often that I was willing to make very painful compromises for a final settlement. I would uproot settlements, even give up parts of Jerusalem. But that was only if I felt that the Arab Israeli conflict was over. There was no way I was willing to use it as a starting board for further demands or worse - as a starting board for a war against Israel.

The events of the last year and a half have proved that the Palestinians and Arabs are interested in nothing less than the destruction of the State of Israel. That may change in the future, but it is clear that is what they want now. Therefore, in order to defend my children, I will take no compromises for my security. None. I can’t imagine another country doing any less.

If the Palestinians want to end the conflict they have one way to do it – say they stop fighting.

This isn’t a case of moral equivalence. Israeli soldiers are not delibaretly targeting Palestinian civilians and when civilians are hurt we apologize. Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civililians in order to instill fear. Mistakes certainly may have been made here, but we certainly aren’t terrorists.

And we certainly aren’t Nazis. We just aren’t. I’ve visited the death camps in Poland. That’s where they murdered entire family in gas chambers and then burned them in crematoria. That’s not whats happening here. It’s not even what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis.

I’ll leave it here for now, but I’m willing to respond to pretty much anything put up here.

2

‘First of all, I believe that [White Anglo Saxon Protestants] have a right to live anywhere they want. If I can live just south of [New York City], I can certainly live just south of [York, England]. I don’t believe that [we WASPS] need to “do” anything to force the world to recognize it. We – the WASPS-- have been here a very long time. We never gave up the right to come back.’

Make appropriate substitutions for each Square Bracket at will.
:slight_smile:

Israel exists as it does for the reason that every other state does. Most of the world recognises its right to exist and it has the power to maintain that position.

Appeals to Ancient History have a limited impact.

In Britain I’m a member of a British anti-immigrant organisation- called Pro-Beaker Folk United. I want all those of Celtic, Roman, Anglo Saxons, Norman, Jewish, Hugenots, Indians, Africans and Chinese expelled from these shores.

Britain for the Britons. :smiley:

Doesn’t really work, does it? :confused:

BTW I strongly support Israel’s Right to exist at the same time as strongly supporting a Palestinian State- not an incomprehensible position when you consider other long term fraticidal rivalries between countries around the world.

3

Aaargh! Why don’t I use preview? I’m posting a fixed version. Mods, feel free to delete the preceding post.

This’ll hopefully make good debate. Thank you.

4

  1. Do the other folks in the settlements feel like you? I will say, as you may know, we are bombarded on U.S. TV with images of gun toting settlement residents who say variations of “G-d gave this land to Moses and we cannot give it up, even peices of it, or it is a sin.”

  2. If a deal had been struck with Arafat, essentially withdrawing to the '67 border would, say 80%, of the settlers would go out with the Army withdrawal or would the vast majority stay and fight/try to live under the Authority?

Sorry if there is a Woody Allen/Annie Hall “So you’re a real Jew” element in these questions … just wondered this before & had no Settlers truly on the ground to ask. No offence meant.

5

Is someone saying that WASPS don’t have a right to live in New York or England?

Here I disagree – ancient history has everything to do with it. It is because people have been living in countries since ancient times do they make the claim that their country has a right to exist. No one would say that new immigrants from Bangladesh to Denmark have a right to establish a new Bangladeshi country there. All I’m saying is that we, the Jews, never fully left this land, and certainly, as a people, never gave up the right to come back. We aren’t carpetbaggers.

I agree. In the same way the Celtics, et al shouldn’t be expelled from England, neither Jews nor Arabs should be forcebly deported from anywhere in Israel.

6

To Curwin:

The argument regarding New York/ York was about all those Americans of British descent having some right to settle in Britain just because their ancestors came from there- just not tenable.

The argument regarding te Beaker Folk is aimed at ancient historical rights to land. Its as if some surviving people of pure Beaker folk descent decided 2300 years later to join the 5% of Beaker folk in Britain and claim all of the south of Britain as their natural homeland, expelling all others of other descent to the less attractive areas of the country.

I’m sorry, but this is what Israel effected in Palestine. I happen to support their right to this as supported by the UN and international opinion in 1948 (not because of an ancient deserved ‘right of return’ but purely as a necessary reaction to the political situation after the Shoah.). I don’t have to accept some of the atrocious behaviour exhibited by the Israeli state since. Similarly, I support the right of the Palestinians to their own nation-state and similarly condemn their atrocities.

My point was that if every aboriginal people demanded and received the rights that Zionists believe to be theirs, then the whole world of nation states would need to be massively re-drawn and much ethnic-cleansing would be necessary. Not a desirabl outcome for individuals or the world.

7

curwin:

Has Alessan stopped posting? He’s Israeli.

8

First of all, take care of yourself Curwin. Things seem to be getting a little wild over there at the moment.

I could get into the politics of it all but what I’ve always wondered is:

Why would anyone want to live in one of the settlements surrounded by hostile, impoverished Palestinians who’s greatest wish is to see you all gone (or even dead)?

Why live in a settlement, why not go and live in Israel?

It seems (from where I’m sitting) that you are in some kind of armed fortress surrounded by enemies. I understand that Israel itself could be viewed as an armed fortress surrounded by enemies but the settlements seem to be the icing on the cake - the thing that really pisses the Palestinians off.

Why would anyone want to live like that?

Would you not be showing the Palestinians more respect by not forcibly taking their land off them. You appear to be rubbing their faces in it, humiliating them.

9

Israeli, yes - but residing, for the moment, in the Upper East Side.

10

Curwin:

Why is it that most of the settlers are people like yourself. In otherwords NOT of Israeli birth. They are people from America going over there and living in these settlements which are one of the biggest thorns in the side of the Israeli nation where the people who’ve grown up there and lived their all of their lives are mostly content to live in Israel proper? Why did you feel it necessary to move from the United States to Israel to cause even more trouble in an already besieged nation?

Also I’m going to have to go with everyone else on this, you have NO RIGHT to your ancestral lands based upon religious heritage.

I support Israel’s right to exist in that the people are there and would have to displace someone else to vacate Israel but I believe the settlements should be bulldozed.

So do you think that because of my familial christian heritage that I have equal rights to live in Bethlehem or Nazareth, as you have to live there? After all that is the land of Jesus’ origin.

Erek

11

You live on an occupied land that doesn’t belong to you. Plain and simple.
Most settlers have no respect for the palestinians. They hate them and want them removed to Jordan.

Do you call you self a jewish-palestinian ? - compare to israeli-arabs.

12

I hate to say this, but there is a point: an American WASP doesn’t have a right to settle in England. Visit, yes. Settle, no. A Saudi can’t just settle in Haifa. We can’t just live anywhere we want.

Even if there was a right, it may not be right. Settlements complicate the only hope for a long term solution, some autonomous Palestinian entity in the West Bank. If you decide to live in a Palestinian state, if when that occurs, fine. But should other Israelis be put at risk trying to protect you? Should a peace be forsaken because your compatriots don’t want to go?

I am an unabashed Israel supporter. The current operation is justified. But I gotta agree with those whose thoughts I typically find offensive, why settle there? The holy site argument seems just as pernicious as Muslims claiming Jerusulam. They are minor sites to Judaism. We never sang L’Shanah Haba’ah B’Hebron.

13

You are all wrong. He has just as much a right to be there as any palestinian does. Here is why:

  1. That area belonged to Jordan since 1948. (palestinians weren’t complaining then)

  2. Jordan attacked Israel even after Israel asked it not to join in the fighting of 67 (palestinians weren’t complaining then)

  3. Jordan lost that area durring the 67 war. palestinians were complaining then)

  4. Israel kept that area to use as a negotiating tool for peace with Jordan. (you bet palestinians were complaining then)

Quote:

I hate to say this, but there is a point: an American WASP doesn’t have a right to settle in England. Visit, yes. Settle, no. A Saudi can’t just settle in Haifa. We can’t just live anywhere we want.

If that is true then I hate to say this an Egyptian can’t settle in the WB either then…I guess Yassir Arafat is out of luck.

Now for my questions…

  1. You are orthordox right? Are there any or even significant numbers of conservative or even reform Jews in Israel now?

  2. You stated that you were unemployed for 6 months. This might be too personal but is the economy that bad there right now? I mean I know that it has been going through a sort of recession because of the intifida (well we had it happen here to so maybe it wasn’t the intifida but it sure hasn’t helped I wouldn’t think). And if I can ask what is your profession?

  3. Is it hard to integrate into Israeli society comming from the US?

  4. Do you see a difference in the way that you are treated as a settler vs somebody living in Israel proper?

Thanks in advance and please be careful.

Shalom

14

curwin, first, thanks for starting the thread.

Second, I am really anxious to see you address the previous challenges to your assertion that “Jews have a right to the land” based on Biblical writings. You known darn well that no matter what the Torah says those who do not follow it will challege anything you base on it. Regardless of your convictions, people on this earth have to find other ways (other than Religion) to settle conflicts.

Third, I’d like to ask about the specific importance of having settlements where they are today - why? Why settlements? Why not even leave the area empty if it is disputed or needed as a security buffer zone? I don’t see the actual need to build there, and keep you and your family in harms way while additionally giving Palestinian radicals more to get mad about.

Fourth, the Palestinian view - a brief conversation with a Palestinian American: Palestinians also want to live where their families had been living, they do not want to be transplanted or exist in refugee camps (as anyone would not), but they say Israel would never allow this, because the idea is to have a Jewish state, and if Palestinians would be allowed to return they would quickly outnumber Jews and the whole idea of a Jewish state would be no more, and therefore Israel will never given them wht they want. What is your take on this?

15

While traditionally true, there are many troubling reports from independent sources that in the current campaign the Israeli troops are at best indifferent to civilian suffering and casualties, and at worse going out of their way to inflict as much economic pain as possible. Examples of the reports include Aid agencies say Palestinians face humanitarian crisis from the Jerusalem Post and Amin: Israeli actions foment anger from CNN.com.

I am also concerned that one of the main reasons the troops are keeping out reporters and international observers is to cover up these actions, which I blame more on Sharon personally than on any general policy of Israel. But it is important for Israel to keep the moral high ground. If not, then the rest of the world will just look at this as tribal warfare between two equally bad sides.

16

nswgru1 said:

Are Palestinians allowed to live inside the Jewish settlements? If not, then the settlements are no more than an attempt to create a Greater Israel.

I agree that Israelis have every right to live in Palestinian controlled areas if they wish but if Israel is sectioning off Palestinian areas exclusively for Jewish use then this is just straight forward land-grabbing.

Sharon’s idea is to create lots and lots of Jewish settlements so that many of them effectively join together to create large exclusively Jewish areas in the West Bank.

Israel was created specifically for people like Curwin to live in. That was the deal. That’s why we created it. If the Israeli government start to move out of Israel into neighbouring areas then they are reneging on the deal.

Ultimately, the ideal would be that everyone can live wherever they want and no one really gives a shit - this is the situation in most of the civilised world.

Jewish settlements would be ok provided they were permitted by the Palestinian Authority and were policed by the Palestinians not by the Israelis. Israeli jurisdiction ends at the Israeli border.

Do you understand my point? If Israelis wish to live in Palestine, fine. But they should accept the fact that they are in Palestine not Israel.

Of course not, why would they complain? Jordan is filled with their Palestinian brethren. What’s your point?

Ditto. Why would they complain? What’s your point?

So? What’s your point?

17

I think this is a great argument. I’d like to see you use it against the creation of Nunavut in Canada or the return of lands to other First Nations.

I’ve always thought that the settlements should have been designed for a population mix proportional to the overall population of Israel. If the settlers want to build ten new houses, two of them would be reserved for Israeli Arabs.

Hey Curwin, you’re in Efrat? Do you know my friend… :wink:

18

Originally posted by curwin:

While I agree with this statement and with Israel’s right to exist in general I have to ask: What about the Palestinians right to return? The Palestinians have been in that region for a very long time also, do they not have the right to return? They do not want to give up this right either, but it appears they may not be given the choice.

Originally posted by curwin:

While I am not going to compare Israel with Nazi Germany (I don’t think this comparison is particularly valid), I do believe there is injustice in the way Palestinians are treated. For example, one of my coworkers is a Palestinian who immigrated to the US about 12 years ago. He has told me the story that his family was evicted from their property in Jerusalem and sent to the camps with NO compensation. The property (house and textile business) was allegedly in the family for about 300 years. The family had not protested the Israeli government, had not committed acts of violence, had not done anything to be a threat to the state of Israel. I have no way of verifying these claims, but I have worked with him for several years and I do not think he is a liar. If his story is true, which I have no reason to believe it isn’t, I am forced to think that the Israeli government IS targeting Palestinian civilians, if not with violence, at least terrorism of another form (I, for one, would feel terror if this were done to me and my family).

This whole situation is very sad and there does not seem to be much intelligence on either side, only hatred. Both sides have committed atrocities, from suicide bombings targeting civilians to a state policy of assassination. Neither side seems to want peace… The Palestinians refuse to stop fighting (as you said), while the Israeli’s refuse to stop settling the occupied territories. When will it end?

:frowning:

19

I was going to wait for curwin to come back and answer some of the questions but I guess I will have to wait just like everybody else.

Jojo Said:

  1. I agree that Israelis have every right to live in Palestinian controlled areas if they wish but if Israel is sectioning off Palestinian areas exclusively for Jewish use then this is just straight forward land-grabbing.

  2. Israel was created specifically for people like Curwin to live in. That was the deal. That’s why we created it. If the Israeli government start to move out of Israel into neighbouring areas then they are reneging on the deal.

Ultimately, the ideal would be that everyone can live wherever they want and no one really gives a shit - this is the situation in most of the civilised world.

  1. Do you understand my point? If Israelis wish to live in Palestine, fine. But they should accept the fact that they are in Palestine not Israel.

  2. quote:

  1. That area belonged to Jordan since 1948. (palestinians weren’t complaining then)

Of course not, why would they complain? Jordan is filled with their Palestinian brethren. What’s your point?
quote:

  1. Jordan attacked Israel even after Israel asked it not to join in the fighting of 67 (palestinians weren’t complaining then)

Ditto. Why would they complain? What’s your point?
quote:

  1. Jordan lost that area durring the 67 war. palestinians were complaining then)

  2. Israel kept that area to use as a negotiating tool for peace with Jordan. (you bet palestinians were complaining then)

So? What’s your point?

nswgru1 says in response:

  1. No it is not straight forward land grabbing. Here is why, the war in 1967 (as far as the Jordanians are concerned) was initiated by the Arabs. By international law land aquired durring a defensive war are not required to be given back. As I stated previously Israel has retained that land to negotiate for peace settlements. The problem (as I see it) is that post 67 Israel’s Arab neighbors have effectivly transfered the problem of the refugees (who up until this time where not calling themselves palestinians in the classical sense of nationalism) to Israel. Unfortunatly for Israel, and the world at this point in time, is that WE the United States and the rest of the civilised world let them get away with it. (I wont even get into the question of Arab imigration into the region prior to and post 67)

  2. First: these are contradictory statements. Second: reread above paragraph. How can they be considered reneging on the deal. Answer that question both in the light of international law or morally.

  3. No I don’t understand your point. You have obviously formed an opinion based on emotions of what you feel is morally right and wrong based on the history of some 30 years of occupation.

  4. My point is this when you launch an offensive war and you lose at least try to have some simblance of honor. Accept the fact that you have been defeated and take the consequences. This is what the rest of the civilised world does.

I would like to go on the record and point out something here, the use of the term Nazi like or any reference there of in regards to the Israelis is a direct result of 20 years of palestinian propoganda. It uterly amazes me that if humans hear something long enough they start believing it. For the record I haven’t seen any ovens in Israel that have been built to deal with the palestinians…so by attempting to draw a parallel you should be making the palestinian spin masters quite happy.
:rolleyes:

20

Let’s take this step by step.

First Canada is a sovereign nation, with a lot of unpopulated land, probably more than just about any country in the entire world. Second as a sovereign nation they may choose to give up some of this land to right wrongdoings on their part over the past few hundred years. Third The Nunavut were displaced by Canada as a people. They did not move and settle the globe then decide to come back because some musty religious text written in a nearly dead language told them it was the promised land.

I’d be willing to bet that Canada is not forcibly removing citizens from their homes to provide an “ancestral homeland” for the nunavut. Canada is doubtfully saying “Choose whichever part of Canada you wish”, I don’t think the Nunavut could claim downtown Toronto as their “ancestral homeland” Canada is probably setting aside a particular piece of land for them.

What the Israeli settlers appear to assume is that because the Torah says that Israel is the promised land, that it belongs to them. People like Curwin move into an area populated by an already marginalized people, although a certain piece of that area, a sizable chunk in fact has already been set aside for them. These people choose not to move into the piece that was set aside for them, they move into the areas surrounding it because of what it says in the Torah and then believe that it represents a legitimate claim, which it does not. There are people there, and the settlers could live legitimately in Israel proper.

So please, pay attention when you are responding, and don’t give an example that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. If you want to provide me an example of the Nunavut claiming land in or near Canada’s major cities, or crossing Canada’s major highways and then cutting them off from access to one another then we’ll talk. Until then, come up with a valid example.

:wally

Erek