Spontaneous Human Combustion - "Wicking"

[jonbrawn]

The explanation that I heard for SHC used the rather evocative phrase "wicking" to describe the process of gradual rendering and combustion. It was on a TV program in the UK, and they'd done an experiment that involved a (previously deceased) pig wrapped in a blanket being set a-fire.

[Ethilrist]

Howdy. I believe you're talking about this column (it's traditional to provide a link to it if you have a question about it).

Yes, that's what he was talking about in his fourth bullet point at the end. Not nearly so spontaneous as we used to think, a ready source of consumable fuel, and people who were too infirm to do anything about it once they caught fire.

[Tarkin]

I can not believe that Cecil treats this junk as real. He is losing a lot of respect from me.

Look, the problem is that reports are not rare enough. There have been more than enough potential reports of after-the fact deaths that by this time, we should have come across someone IN PROCESS of combustion.

The total lack of discoveris of people in the process of combusting, yet not done, is more than enough of a dis-proof of spontaneous Human Combustion. What, it only happens when someone is goign to be alone for the next 4 hours?

[Ethilrist]

Tarkin, what do you think all those reports of people getting burned and having to go to the hospital for treatment are? Potential cases of SHC which were avoided by somebody saying, "Crap! I'm on fire!" and doing something about it.

If somebody goes to visit Aunt Sally and finds her slightly ablaze, they're going to take a look at the scene and say, "Wow, guess you shouldn't smoke in bed," or "guess you shouldn't have been sitting so close to the fire." They're not going to say, "Hey! Spontaneous Human Combustion!"

[Ice Wolf]

I don't think Cecil has lost credibility at all. A series of theories were put forward, and they're still theories, unless someone devises a lab experiment that meets all the conditions.

As for me, I saw that UK doco myself, jonbrawn (welcome to the SDMB, btw), and it fairly well sorted out for me the answer to the phenomenon.

[Kempis]

Ice Wolf didn't you say that the documentary sorted it out for you? Didn't the pig experiment meet enough conditions?

I haven't seen the documentary. What did the fire look like? Open flame or a smouldering BBQ briquette? Or did they show that on TV? Eewwww.

-k

[jonbrawn]

Eewwww? Compared to some of the things that get shown on TV a burning pig is nothing. PowerRangers, for example. Or worse still Teletubbies. Now that really is Eewwww.

I think Tarkin misinterpretted Cecils writing - I think he's taking the line that humans don't spontaneously combust at all, it just appears that way if you set your nightie on fire and have a heart attack before you can run around the room setting everything else on fire too.

[nowwatchthis]

Yes, they showed the pig burning on TV. The show was on in the US on TLC or Discovery and presented a plausible scientific explanation for what has been labeled as SHC.

[rowrrbazzle]

I've seen that documentary, too. It aired on the Discovery Channel and was narrated by Jonathan Pryce. It was so good I sent an email to the channel praising it very highly and received a nice reply.

As jonbrawn said, the hypothesized wick effect was demonstrated to be correct. One other very interesting point was that the bones were being burned to ash as well due to the burning of the fatty marrow within them.

I think Cecil should do another update referring to this experiment.

[monterey86]

Just one minor comment on this story. It's great that Cecil updates his columns, but it would be nice if they were dated so you could tell how close the update is to the original story. 1980 or 2003?

[RexDart]

Which issue of Skeptical Inquirer did he get that update from? I'm a regular reader but I missed that one somehow.

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by Tarkin
I can not believe that Cecil treats this junk as real. He is losing a lot of respect from me.

Look, the problem is that reports are not rare enough. There have been more than enough potential reports of after-the fact deaths that by this time, we should have come across someone IN PROCESS of combustion.

The total lack of discoveris of people in the process of combusting, yet not done, is more than enough of a dis-proof of spontaneous Human Combustion. What, it only happens when someone is goign to be alone for the next 4 hours?

I didn't believe in SHC until I read the report of a recent case (some years ago) in a very serious newspaper, with the police comments, etc...Then I began to wonder. Given the content of the article (and the paper I found it in), I couldn't just dismiss this thing out of hand.

Fortunately, like Jonbrawn I watched some time later a TV broadcast debunking various phenomenon, and SHC was included. They showed essentially the same kind of experiment : a large piece of fat meat wrapped in flammable fabric was set alight. It would slowly consume, in

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by Tarkin
I can not believe that Cecil treats this junk as real. He is losing a lot of respect from me.

Look, the problem is that reports are not rare enough. There have been more than enough potential reports of after-the fact deaths that by this time, we should have come across someone IN PROCESS of combustion.

The total lack of discoveris of people in the process of combusting, yet not done, is more than enough of a dis-proof of spontaneous Human Combustion. What, it only happens when someone is goign to be alone for the next 4 hours?

I didn't believe in SHC until I read the report of a recent case (some years ago) in a very serious newspaper, with the police comments, etc...Then I began to wonder. Given the content of the article (and the paper I found it in), I couldn't just dismiss this thing out of hand.

Fortunately, like Jonbrawn I watched some time later a TV broadcast debunking various phenomenon, and SHC was included. They showed essentially the same kind of experiment : a large piece of fat meat wrapped in flammable fabric was set alight. It would slowly consume, in the same way a candle does, the fabric acting like a mesh, and the fat and grease in the meat as the wax of the candle. At the end of the experiment (I believe it took several hours, there was only some charred remains left of the piece of meat, while nothing had burnt around it.

So, I was pretty much convinced that this was a good explanation for this phenomenon (plus, the person has to be unable to react...sleep pills, like mentionned in the linked article, disability, or alcohol...or possibly death...since there's no way to tell whether the victim was still alive when the SHC took place)

[stoyel]

Ethilrist, that's all very well, but one would expect a victim of truly spontaneous combustion to be a little more adamant in explaining to concerned relatives that no, they were not sitting too close to the fire and had not been smoking. The fact that the medical community hasn't come out and said, uh, folks, we keep getting emergency room cases who said they weren't anywhere near a fire and weren't even generating much static when they caught fire, suggests to me that SHC (just like all these emergency-room cases) has a perfectly rational environmental cause.

I saw the burning-pig documentary, too, and the wicking theory explained it well -- a lot better than the mystical disappear-in-a-puff-of-smoke SHC hypothesis, which is kind of the point. One is a hypothesis which cannot be tested, the other is a theory which has been tested and supported by testing. Until SHC believers manage to get a human being to spontaneously combust in laboratory conditions, wicking is a more valid explanation than SHC.

[Ice Wolf]

Originally posted by Kempis
Ice Wolf didn't you say that the documentary sorted it out for you? Didn't the pig experiment meet enough conditions?

I haven't seen the documentary. What did the fire look like? Open flame or a smouldering BBQ briquette? Or did they show that on TV? Eewwww.

-k

I don't recall any real "Ewwwww". But it was interesting, and others since your post have explained it well.

Certainly beats the "changing magnetic patterns of the earth" theory I read once.

[moriah]

One thing that I'll quibble with Cecil's report is that I've read that most cases of SHC occurred not with a open window as a source of oxygen, but usually with a sealed off room with a very low source of oxygen (from door cracks and what-not).

Thus, the person that's not-so-spontaneously combusting is using up almost all the oxygen in its slow-bake wicking moldering; and this low oxygen level keeps other items getting real hot nearby from spontaneously combusting.

Peace.

Peace.

[APB]

The BBC documentary was a QED episode first shown in 1998. There is a picture of the pig ablaze on this BBC page, although IIRC the flames became less dramatic as the oxygen levels fell and the burning was reduced to smouldering. A similar theory had been presented on another UK TV documentary about ten years before that. Both clearly nailed the whole 'mystery'.

I assume that the Skeptical Inquirer article Cecil refers to was Nickell and Fischer, 'Incredible cremations: Investigating spontaneous combustion deaths', Skeptical Inquirer 11 (4), Summer 1987: 352-357. Subsequent articles by Nickell are here and here.

[Waenara]

There was an episode of CSI (link to episode synopsis) that had a case of "spontaneous human combustion."

They ended up doing an experiment where they put a pig in a nightgown and set it on fire. It ended up cremating nearly all of the animal, but barely damaged the surrounding area.

This was just a mock-up experiment for a television show, but CSI usually puts a very high emphasis on realism, so they probably conducted the entire experiment themselves.

[Irishman]

Tarkin, whether or not SHC sounds like craziness, there have been reports over a couple of centuries that provided the basis for the claim. These reports put the question as valid to what is actually occurring. The significance is that the conditions reported upon discovery do not seem to match standard experience with fires. Finding completely charred remains surrounded by totally unburned flammable materials is bizarre. Finding bones burned to ash when conventional experience shows even with high temperature fires some bones are not fully burned and must be ground up is very bizarre. These anomalous conditions beg an explanation.

The record of these recorded incidents is muddied by poor observation, misleading descriptions, and fanciful conclusions. But the conditions still exist, and that gives enough support to make it a valid question of what is really going on.

As for people having it happen to them, I recall a couple of the TV shows from the '80s - Real People and That's Incredible. One of them - I forget which - had an episode about SHC, including testimonials from burn victims who claimed it was from SHC.

Also, information on the actual answer is fairly new and not that widespread. True, some TV programs have demonstrated it and Skeptical Inquirer discussed it, and the information is being spread. It's still not very well disseminated, so it is appropriate for Cecil to help spread the information, the true answer over the wild speculations. That's Cecil's purpose - fighting ignorance.

Interesting to note how the wicking effect was first figured out. They actually did find a body in the process of burning. A woman's body had been dumped in a ditch in IIRC Canada and was discovered as it was burning. This was a signficant event of finding "SHC" as it was occurring.

As far as what the burning looked like in the TV show, it wasn't like a charcoal briquette just glowing, you could see flames, but they were small - on the order of a few inches.

[cdhostage]

I dunno about spontaneous human combustion of a conscious person, but I think that an already-dead or wasted person would be able to sit and smolder without a problem. I've done a lot of composting, and I can tell you that the bottoms of those piles are hot, hot enough that if you're stupid and stick your hand into it, you'll get blistered.