Do people REALLY believe that professional gamblers have addictions?

In My Humble Opinion
1

My husband is a professional poker player. Something he’s always wanted to do. He makes a good living, he never bets “scared money” (money he can’t afford to lose), and he does not show any signs of addiction (lying about his actions, compulsive gambling, continuing to play poker well after he has reached his losing limit, etc.).

Despite all this, many people, when I tell them my husband is a professional poker player, have asked me if he is seeking help!! :eek: One co-worker went so far as to have a friend that conducts interventions call me & try to set up a meeting time.

Is this how professional gamblers are viewed?

2

I think there’s been a lot of media exposure to the “addicted” gambler lately – obviously, there are some people who let it take over, and ruin, their lives. That’s SOME people, not all.
I’d be insulted if I received the comments you mention – that’s like implying that a wine connoisseur is a drunk.

3

I don’t think your husband has a problem; he sounds to smart to fall into that trap.

Gambling is like anything else. Some people can handle it, some cannot. If he truly never bets “scared” money, then tell the meddlers to butt out.

Some people can have one drink and be content. I always want more and I have to resist the urge. If I was weaker, or perhaps some catastrophe sent me on a binge, then I’m sure I would be an alcoholic. And hate myself for it.

If he is doing something he truly enjoys and his intellect rules his heart, then I say more power to him.

4

Well, my knowledge of professional gambling comes from movies like Rounders or Maverick or that new show with the Big Fat Greek Weding guy so I guess I’m an expert.
Gambling is a game of luck and odds. The odds are in the houses favor so the longer you play, the more likely you are to eventualy lose. That makes a long-term career in gambling highly dubious.

There, however, are several ways to beat the odds:

  1. Counting counting cards - Basically you are trying to figure out if the cards are in your favor or the houses. When the odds are in your favor, you bet big. When they aren’t, you bet small. That way, you can beat the long term odds and turn a profit. There are several downsides to this method:
    –Casino’s frown on it - It could get you anything from banned from the casino to getting your hand broken by goons.
    –It’s not perfect - My friend tried to do this in AC and he’s a math genius. He lost about $1000.
    –It’s damn near impossible with 8 decks.

  2. Playing games like poker where you play the player, not the house - Then you get into the fabulous world of bluffing, “tells” and so on. The downside:
    –It’s still not easy
    –There’s still random luck involved
    Now I don’t know you or your husband. Maybe he is that good. There are some things to consider:

-Gamblers LIE!!! :eek: - Part of gambling is being able to BLUFF. That means that when he says that he isn’t betting the kids college money or the mortgage, he actually might be.

-Few people know when to walk away - Everyone thinks that “one more hand” and their luck will change. Worse than that, they get into a “I’m playing with their money” mindset and loose whatever they would have won (“I was up $5000 but…”)

-It isn’t a “sure thing” - No one can make an Ace magically appear like Mel Gibson in Maverick (although I would freak out my poker pals by refusing to look at my cards) . I doubt of people exhibit obvious tells like unscrewing Oreos or screetching like Rainman when they bluff. If it was a “sure thing” Matt Damons character would not have to explain to his girlfriend how he lost 50 large at Johnny KGBs place and have to borrow from his law professor.

Bottom line, it’s a financially risky profession. If that’s the kind of business he likes, your husband might be better off being a trader or something in the markets.

5

Hm. Msmith, you are apparently falling under some much-bandied myths.

6

Sorry, got kicked off.

  1. Poker is a game more of skill than luck. Which is why I can’t do it. I don’t have that particular skill. And counting cards is possible, just very difficult. You don’t have to be a math genius to do it (but btw, my husband majored in physics, and is a walking calculator), just ability. 7 card stud hi-lo single deck is his game, although he will play Omaha if the tables are full. From the three (I think) cards showing, with a card burned every round, it is not only possible for him to extrapolate who has what, he’s usually right. Where does your friend play with 8 DECKS??!!

  2. No, it ain’t easy!! Which is why there are so few rich poker players that weren’t rich to begin with. And there are ways to reduce “random luck.” Hold 'Em; well ya got me there, it IS more luck than skill. However, there are still skills involved.

This man has been playing poker for a LOONG TIME. It used to make me very nervous. Til I watched him play. To give you an example of just how good he is (as are the people with whom he plays): my mother, the arch-conservative’s arch-conservative, Mrs. Always-Have-a-Backup-Plan,is comfortable with him doing this for a living.

7

A very close friend of mine considered himself a “professional” gambler. For years, we were always amazed at how much money he carried around. He always wore nice clothes and paid for expensive dinners. For one thing, gamblers are extremely resilient. Almost like a hyena that is laughing in public, but then must scavenge for food at night.

I’m also very close to my friend’s wife. She revealed to me that for the past several years, she’s never seen an income tax refund. They have 2 children and they usually receive a 5-figure return. (I know that this is bad money management, but that’s another story). Anyway, my friend apparently used this money to “invest” in his profession. His wife stopped bringing it up just to avoid an argument.

From time to time, I’d lend my friend a few thousand dollars. I knew that he was an addict, but I had faith that he’d return it. He always would (even if I had to sometimes wait several months). Apparently, he would borrow from our other friends. He was basically just borrowing from one friend and paying back others. Kind of an interest-free revolving line of credit. He was even borrowing from his wife’s friends, and friends at work, and eventually had to resort to bookies.

Well, after a few years of this, he was $120K in the hole. The bookies were threatening to take it out on his family. Yes, they specifically mentioned the kids. No one (not even his wife) had any idea how large his losses had become. His father-in-law had to liquidate his 401K to bail him out. To this day, he’s never been paid back.

Now, 3 years after the bailout, he’s still gambling. His wife is wondering what happened to this year’s tax return. They mailed it out in February. As usual, he believes that the IRS screwed up. But he doesn’t want to call them because he’s sure it will come in the mail any day now. BTW, I filed on my taxes on April 15 and already got my check.

Maureen, I’m not saying that you’re in a similar situation. But I’ll bet that 99 out of 100 “professional” gamblers are somewhere along this timeline. The thing about poker is that once you’re too good, the only people that will play with you are people as good or better. Of course, you can play poker games that are more luck-oriented, but then you will eventually lose.

Best of luck to you and your husband. One more thing: Most “professional” gamblers have other jobs that finance the gambling. So they may seem to be successful gamblers, but are simply losing part of their income.

8

WOW!! How horrible for your friend, Jackknifed. I do feel for her.

In truth, he just started playing poker professionally about 6 months ago. He worked for a large coffee company for 17 years, hurt his back, got retrained as a network/hardware engineer, the market fell out, couldn’t find work… (drama,drama,drama), and now he does this. He does, indeed lose on occasion. I can always tell. :wink: It has something to do with the way he sits on the couch and fumesandfumesandfumes.

I am lucky enough to have a job in healthcare, one of the few stable industries in California; and on top of that, it’s a job I love with incredible benefits. It keeps us stable, and allows him to occasionally lose.

He has a bank roll, which is separate from our savings & checking, and money from those places do not go toward his bankroll. If he’s down this week, he’s down this week. Money does, on the other hand, go from his bankroll to our accounts.

Don’t get me wrong…we have debated this course of events. I know his work ethic (most people these days don’t know what that is), and his devotion to our family. If I didn’t push him, he wouldn’t be doing this. He’d have found a job at MacDonald’s rather than play cards for a living. But I know it is what he truly wants to do. And I will support that; a dream should always be chased, so long as it doesn’t endanger our family.

9

Your original question was, I believe – how are gamblers viewed by the general public? Well, does anyone remember day traders – I don’t recall those folks being asked to join a support group. I’d say, let it play out for another year, see if it’s a viable option for your family, Maureen.
I don’t dispute the fact that many gamblers are addicted, but I’m always wary of generalizations.
And, for the record, I never gamble…the most I’ve lost is $5 in quarters, in one trip to Vegas.

10

I used to play quite a bit of casino poker and was pretty good. I kept all of my wins and losses on a spread sheet. The good news is that I am in the black since I started playing seriously. The bad news is that I averaged about $1.20/hour for my troubles. Let’s just say that I am better off with a “real job.”

I have known quite a few people who are able to make a reasonable living off of poker. I have known more who were addicts and lose their money to people like your husband and the casinos.

Gambling is when the odds are against you. Your husband isn’t gambling.

Haj

11

I was a professional poker player for a time. I was never addicted, always made money in the medium run, although anyone can have a losing week or even a losing month, I never had a losing year, or anywhere near it.

I quit because I got sick of playing cards, and tired of getting the same kinds of reactions Maureen is talking about.

There are thousands of professional poker players. They are generally highly intelligent, mathematically inclined, and as a result don’t go anywhere near games in which they do not have an edge.

Then there’s another category: the ‘professionals’ who are just players who believe in luck or their own intuition in poker, eschewing the math. Those are the guys the real pros make their living off of. They can be seen at the slot machines or the craps tables in between poker games. They bet sports heavily (and aren’t particularly good at it). They’re degenerate gamblers fooling themselves.

The trick is to figure out which category your husband is in. But be forewarned: Professional gambling is not an easy way of life. Wait until your husband goes through a losing month or two. No only does he not make his $3000 or whatever it is he typically makes, but he loses $5,000. Now his bankrool takes an $8,000 swing, which causes him to play outside his comfort level. As a result, his judgement goes off a few degrees, or he goes on tilt, and has another couple of big losses.

I doesn’t take too much of this before everything goes to hell. I’ve seen good poker players win for two years by playing solidly, then have a bad run of luck turn them into dejected losers with bad judgement.

Poker is a fine hobby that can actually make you some spending money. But as someone who was there, I don’t recommend it for a living.

12

Professional anythings should be seen as professionals, regardless of their field. An engineer, an NFL player, an artist, or a professional gambler have all dedicated substantial portions of their lives to becoming good at something, and I see and respect that. Whether everyone (or anyone) else does is something entirely different.

And just for the record, I almost never gamble, but I do wish I was good enough to hustle pool.

13

My grandfather was a professional gambler. There’s a huge difference between an addicted gambler and a professional. Just as there’s a difference between a drinker and an alcoholic. Tell those old biddies to mind their own bees wax.

14

Degenerate gamblers employ the gambler’s fallacy (it’s due, I tell ya) and magical thinking. Pro’s tend to be rational about it,

15

I think the confusion between a professional gambler and an addicted gambler is because those addicted pretend they are professional. It’s also so very difficult to be a good pro gambler that most people think it’s impossible.

The main difference is that a professional gambler is always conscious of the odds and doesn’t trust to luck. I’m more familiar with horse racing than cards, but I’d suspect the same principles apply: Pick your spots. Know when to cut your losses. Don’t bet if you don’t have an edge. Stay away from sucker bets.

However, you’ve got to expect some skepticism when your husband gambles for a living.

16

My take on it is that if you don’t mind, and can live off of what you alone make, then don’t worry about him or what people say about him.

But professional or no, I don’t believe that winnings can be steady enough (i.e. no losing streaks) that they can be counted on to pay the rent.

there’s also the problem of being able to tell the difference between a professional gamble and an addict- and when its your family’s security on the line, I think that people have a right to be skeptical.

17

Sorry for this little hijack but I have to comment…
Being good enough to hustle pool only requires a modest amount of skill, ie. being able to run a rack when all your balls are open.
FTR, serious players make a distinction between hustling and gambling. Hustlers are con artists, hiding their true speed and letting a mark win a few games then upping the bet and clean him out. The best way to treat them is to break multiple bones and leave them in the dumpster.
Gambling is more honest, the only real con is negotiating the spot (if any) but typically both players have a damn good idea of the other’s speed and just think they’re gonna be just a little bit better than the other guy on that day.

I don’t know any serious card players but I expect anyone that calls himself a professional to be just that. I don’t assume they have an addiction. I think your friends should just mind their own damn business.

18

I follow horse racing. It’s not poker, but there are professional horseplayers too. And the track does also attract its fair share of gambling addicts.

But they are not the professionals. The professionals are much like RealityChuck and Sam Stone mentioned: highly-disciplined players who know when and what to play and when and what not to. For an interesting look at professional horseplaying, I’d recommend reading any of Andrew Beyer’s books–he demonstrates that it really is more than just showing up at the track. There are past-performances and result charts and figures to study, early-morning workouts to attend, people to talk to, and much more than just picking a horse out of the program and calling a bet to a mutuel teller.

The addicts, on the other hand, don’t do that. I know one; he’s a friend of mine. He bet thousands at the track daily, winning sometimes, losing more often. He was just looking for the big score, playing with scared money, chasing the hope that the next race will pay off. He was an addict (a fact he freely admits), but he got help, and now doesn’t go near the place.

To sum up, Maureen, I don’t see a professional player as an addict. To me, he or she is a hardworking professional who has studied the game and like any investor, knows when to invest and (here’s the important part) when not to. The addict, on the other hand, doesn’t care–all he or she wants to do is lay the money down on any and every chance available and wait for the result. I see your husband as the former–the true professional.

19

Sam Stone;
For the record there is one thing that I know for sure sends my husband on tilt. Obnoxious loudmouthed jerks that shouldn’t be at a table. Not cocky, he expects cocky, because if you aren’t, you probably aren’t any good at the game. But yelling at the dealer, telling off other players, throwing cards…this will send him on a personal crusade to bust that player.

Ender, Calhoun & Spooje, thanks for the input to all…I guess I was just a little startled that there is such dirision aimed at professional gamblers. I’d never run into it before, and it was really surprising. Especially from people that I judge to usually have pretty good sense…

20

Anytime you (or someone else) does something outside the norm, the biddies are going to be all atwitter. That’s what they do.