How many social classes are there in the United States?

There is a persistent myth in America that we are a classless society and always have been. It’s obviously not true, but what’s the real picture?

The most compelling analysis of the class system in America I’ve read in the past ten years comes from The Next American Nation by Michael Lind (New York: Free Press Paperbacks, 1996), pp. 141-145 (very long quote, you might want to skip to the bottom):

All of the above is about the white overclass. In Lind’s analysis there is also a black overclass and a Hispanic overclass, but they are socially separate and distinct groups, with only limited intermarriage with the white overclass. They lack the white overclass’s financial independence, and mostly work in civil service jobs and corporate middle management. In fact they are salaried dependents of the white overclass.

Now, this is a good start. But Lind appears to be uninterested in the picture below the overclass level. It’s not just the overclass and all the rest of us, is it? There’s plenty of class tension between the middle class and those below. Even the way Lind defines a class – “a group of families, united by intermarriage and a common subculture, whose members tend to predominate in certain professions and political offices, generation after generation” – would seem to apply to the ruling class only.

I read a book once called Class by Paul Fussell, which carefully divided American society into ten classes, layered one above another. Fussell, however, was writing humorous journalism and did not even pretend to be doing serious sociological analysis. Furthermore, I hesitate to accept a simple hierarchical model of our classes, without taking race and ethnicity into account. It seems inappropriate to place poor whites and poor blacks in the same class, for instance, since they historically have been two definitely separate groups with practically no intermarriage or cross-association – separate enough that the white elite often could play them off against each other in wage-competition and strikebreaking. Someday they might merge to form a single class – the process is already beginning, I think, as taboos against interracial marriage fade – but for now, black and white workers should be distinguished, just as Lind distinguishes three overclasses by race.

So what do you think? Apart from the white, black and Hispanic overclasses, how many social classes are there in America. Is a janitor in the same class as a plumber? Is a homeless person in a different and lower class?

I’ve always believed that life is just like high school, except that you don’t get to graduate in 4 years. In high school there were 2 social classes: The jocks and the freaks. So, I go with 2.

You must’ve gone to a pretty small high school. Mine only had ~1000 students, and we had far more than 2 cliques.

I would have to do a lot of research to figure out the number of classes in the US, and the nature of those classes. But one thing is becoming pretty clear.

The class barriers in this country are pretty impermeable. There are occasional exceptions to this, but the class that you’re born into is the one you’ll probably die in. It takes money to make money, and if you’re not born with money, you’ve got a snowball’s chance in hell of being rich.

First of all, you’re confusing economic class (or what would more acuarately be called income percentile) with social class. Two different things

Secondly, you have presented 0 data to support your claim.

Oh what complete crap. I was so poor I though “Irregular” was a designer label. We used catchup for spaghetti sauce. The 3 kids in my family, a girl and 2 boys, shared a single bedroom. Now I live in a half-million dollar house and have a six figure income. Meanwhile, a friend of mine whose father went to Harvard and is related to two presidents, three Mayflower passengers, and Edgar Alan Poe, is now just scraping by in a sucky, low paying job.

How about friggin Bill Clinton. He was complete peckerwood. Being born rich makes things easier, but hard work, good choices, and dumb luck make moving up the class ladder very possible.

Best decision I ever made was leaving the East Coast, where remnants of class conciousness remain. Out west no one cares about class.

I strongly disagree. I have only anecdotal evidence, but my father was first generation off the farm, he was a very successful businessman, despite having gone to a no-name college that doesn’t even exsist anymore. He was never given anything by anyone. I am in law school, and many of my friends here are/were the first in their families to attend college, much less profesional school. With education and hard work it is entirely possible to create your own future in this country. I firmly believe that.

Hmmm…well I went to a public high school with the normal distribution of bright and not-so-bright students. We had the usual assortment of 4.0 valedictorians and the like. However, in ten years we only had one person get into Stanford (the most prestigious college our people had any chance at). Essentially if you went to my high school you had next to no chance of getting into Stanford no matter how hard you tried.

My friend went to a public high school with the normal distribution of bright and not-so-bright student. Their 4.0s didn’t go to Stanford, they went to the Ivy Legues. Stanford was plenty interested in their less spectacular students though, and every year dozens would end up there.

Guess which class was rich and which one was poor, and then give me a lecture on social mobility.

Class seems to get everybodies backs up.

Basically, all it means is that if you are poor you may have low expectations, you may even believe that people in positions of power and authority are really, really clever. Your parents may not be in a position to support you and you have to take the first job that comes along to bring any amount of money into the family.

If you are born to a rich family, you meet and know lots of people in high powered jobs and learn that they are just normal people (the good, the bad and the dickheads) So you know you could do those sort of jobs. Also your parents can support you while you bum around trying to figure out what you are going to be.

Whilst there are is mobility between classes / economic groups these other factors either hold us back or provide a platform for us to reach higher.

On both your points, you’re absolutely right.

But I think that economic class and social class are pretty well related. On that front, I can provide you with some interesting data. Taken from Family Income Mobility–How Much Is There and Has It Changed? byPeter Gottschalk and Sheldon Danziger,Revised December 1997.

To compensate for temporary fluctuations in the income of their subjects, the authors also did a comparison based on a three-year average income for the beginning and end points of the study, i.e., the subjects’ average income from 1968-1970 compared to their average income from 1989-1991. In that table, which I’m unable to reproduce here, it shows that if you start out in the lowest fifth of incomes in the US in 1968, you have a 75.6% chance of being in the lowest or second lowest quintile thirty years later, and you have a 0.9% chance of landing in the top quintile by then.

Given the increasing disparity between rich and poor over that period, I find that kind of economic stasis pretty appalling. Individual examples like Dan Blather aside; there are always exceptions to the rule, but they are, as the data indicates, a one in a hundred shot over thirty years.

This one is from a paper at The Century Foundation.

The idea that anyone can grow up to become anything in the US is, actually, quite true. But the higher up you start on the ladder, the higher your chances are of ending up on top. And starting up there means you’ll probably end up there as well.

Not surprising? Well, no. But it certainly speaks to the existence of classes in the US. If you’re born into a wealthy family, you’ll probably stay wealthy all your life. Welcome to the upper class.

Err… to be honest with you, no amount of social equality (and American has an awful lot of it) is going to compensate for a complete lack of moeny. Given lower starting resources and equal opportunity and skill, the player in a game with more resources grows them faster tha the player with less. You can complain about the game, but the only unfair point is the start, which no one has EVER been able to really rectify over the long term.

Sorry, forgot to say, that in America, the existence of economic classes is a lot fuzzier, too. Middle class people drink wine, can buy good quality imported food, and wield THE decisive power in politics - as a voting bloc they are the ones politicians of all stripes want to woo. Moreove,r it has become increasingly clear that there are no discreet economic classes, but rather a continuum of economic class, which only partly correlates to social class. Moreover, at any one point in economic class, you will find imense difference of opinion. Ultimately, a “class” is defined by those who aren’t a part of it.

"The idea that anyone can grow up to become anything in the US is, actually, quite true. But the higher up you start on the ladder, the higher your chances are of ending up on top. And starting up there means you’ll probably end up there as well.

Not surprising? Well, no. But it certainly speaks to the existence of classes in the US. If you’re born into a wealthy family, you’ll probably stay wealthy all your life. Welcome to the upper class."

Probably true, but that has nothing to do with how hard it is to get into that class if you **didn’t[b/] get born into it.

Without backing this up with data, I’d suspect that the people born into the extremes of wealth or poverty tend to stay there, but the vast majority inbetween are quite mobile. No time to search but data. Maybe later.

I would say class was once a fairly meaningless distinction but that it’s becoming more meaningful as the US economy continues to go to hell in a handbasket. Everyone is having to work longer hours for less real income. Result: more people who can literally be described as wage slaves, as the bulk of their waking lives are spent doing things for wealthy people to earn money so they don’t lose what they have.

Lotsa poor people now work two jobs to survive. Middle class people find their work weeks creeping up to 60 hours from the formerly standard 40 hours as the working class has all but given up on unions and other forms of collective bargaining. Wage slaves all.

Some Americans are working part time in 34-hour-per-week jobs so their bosses don’t have to classify them as full-time and pay them benefits, typically they are also struggling to make ends meet.

You have to have disposable income and free time to enjoy the benefits of freedom. Americans in the middle and lower economic classes are losing both rapidly. In the future the only people with enough money and time to be a meaningful consumer group for anything but basic necessities will be the upper class, if trends continue as they are at present.

As for the upper class, it’s a just another subculture.

I would urge you to read Torstein Vebeln’s great work “THE THEORY OF THE LEISURE CLASS”. In this very old book (ca 1899) he gives a through explanation of class in America. Though old, the book is still essentially true…the old WASP inherited-income elite isstill around. What I find interesting…the “social climbers”. Take the example of a guy I know…and Italian American (2nd generation) who , through hard work and honesty, made a fortune in retailing fruits and vegetables. His kids go to prep scgcolls, and play lacrosse (and date Wasp girls). He however drinks beer and plays bocce. This guy (for all his wealth) will never be accepted by the upper class-and he knows it (and doesn’t care!). Then you have the degenerstes…old-time wasps who have squandered the family fortune and now live in bare houses and wear their grandfather’s suits! They still theink that they are upper class-even though they are broke!

Ah, yes. “Obviously.”
:rolleyes:

So people who are in one quintile tend not to leap into the next quintile or get sent down to the lower one from year to year? Big deal. What the heck did you expect?

Sounds pretty mobile to me. What this study shows is that after 30 years, most people end up in the next quintile. Just because they don’t shoot up to the very top means nothing. More than half of those who moved up landed in the third quintile or better.

So basically, this study says that if you start out in the lowest quintile, the odds are better than 50/50 that you’ll be out of it in the next 30 years. And if you do move out it, the odds are better than 50/50 that you’ll end up making around $42,000 a year (2001 mean income for 3rd quintile). In other words, there’s a one in four chance that you’ll go from the bottom to the middle. Not great odds, but certainly not some sort of wall and is actually not a bad bit of mobility.

But your chances are three in five that you won’t end up there. So the odds are better that you will end up in a lower class than your father if you are in the top quintile than to stay there. Sounds like an impenetrable system of upper class social welfare to me.

So to conclude: if you are born into the economic upper class (top quintile) than you are more likely than someone from a lower economic class to end up there. But the odds are still against you staying up there.

If you are born into the lowest economic quintile, there is a better chance that you will move up into the next economic quintile during your 30 year career, and a 25% chance that you will end up in the middle class.

Sorry, MrVisible that’s not a dire indicator of economic immobility.

I graduated from a large, and good, public high school. Over 700 people in my graduating class. I doubt we even sent “dozens” to U of I. Maybe 25, but not “dozens.” I’d like more information on this public school where many go to the Ivy League, and “dozens” settle for Stanford every year.

Everyone seems to be obsessing about social mobility. Even a very high degree of mobility is not inconsistent with the existence of a class system. As Lind pointed out in another of his books, Up From Conservatism, “For centuries commoners have been ascending to the British aristocracy and younger sons have been falling out of it. That does not mean there is no British aristocracy.”

Everybody’s discussing class-issues, but, nevertheless, we’re drifting off-topic. I started this thread taking Lind’s description of the existence and character of the overclass as a given, as a starting point. As yet, nobody on this thread has directly challenged Lind’s analysis. And I challenged all posters to direct a similar analytical process to all classes BELOW the overclass.

Let’s focus on that: What, exactly, separates or distinguishes the “middle class” from the “working class”? What, if anything, separates the “working class” from the “working poor”? What separates the “working poor” from the “underclass”? I mean, APART FROM INCOME LEVELS. It is possible for me to belong to a higher class than you even though your income is higher than mine. To continue the analysis in Lind’s terms, the things we need to be looking at are the boundaries of association, intermarriage, membership in organizations, lifestyles, cultural assumptions, race and ethnicity, religion, dialects and patterns of speech, and above all, life patterns. For instance, it seems to be that the higher up you go on the class ladder, the longer you delay marriage and childbearing. What else can we find, that distinguishes one class from another?

Also – as I argued above, in some cases we can distinguish two classes without placing them in a hierarchical relationship, one above the other. In my view, working-class whites and working-class blacks are two separate and distinct social classes sharing roughly the same level of the social pyramid. Does anyone care to dispute this, or to build on it?

Finally – Lind rejects such class-analysis models as Marxism, but purports to base his own analysis on “the older notion of class found in classical and European political thought from Aristotle to Montesquieu.” Is there any doper who agrees that a class system exists in America, but thinks some other analytical model is more appropriate than Lind’s? Anyone care to take a stab at arguing that, for instance, Marxism is still relevant?

*Originally posted by BrainGlutton *

OK - I’ll take a stab. I’ll agree that working-class blacks and working-class whites are roughly at the same level of the social pyramid. But why make the distinction based on race? For your thesis to hold, you would need to show what distinguishes working-class whites from working-class blacks. In other words, there are socio-cultural variables of the working class that can be sharply drawn along racial lines.

My intuition tells me that if you were to look at a list of social-cultural characteristics of the working class that there would be no sharp distinction made along racial lines. That is, working-class whites and working-class blacks would share many of the same socio-cultural characteristics. Thus, there would be no need to distinguish working-class whites from working-class blacks as distinct social classes. Here is where, I think, a Marxian analysis would prove fruitful (working class vis-a-vis overclass).

If you could point out distinct socio-cultural differences between the two, then your claim would be stronger.