I hope this hasnt already been brought up by someone :S, here goes.
I was talking to one of my friends who is VERY religious (and by very I mean that she goes to church twice a week, believes in no sex before marriage etc.). After a party one night we got talking about religion and I thought i’d take advantage of this opportunity to see if she could answer some of my questions (myself not being religious at all).
Among her main points, she said that religious ppl tend to be better/more focused because they follow a certain belief and/or set of ‘rules’.
MY argument to this statement was that eventhough she is very religious, and I am not, we both, for the most part have the same values (ie-dont steal, dont hurt people, etc.). So then, how can it be that a mere NON-religious person as myself, would be able to end up at basically the same ‘spot’ without having spend a second in a church or being taught about god?
Anyone want to comment on this??
Secondly, my main point/belief is that I think that religion has been embedded into ppl for such a long long time, that they are almost forced to think ‘that’ way and don’t have the capacity to open their mind to a new way of thinking. My friends parents are bringing her up the same way that their parents did, and so on. So its ‘in their blood’ you could say, and they dont know any better.
Needless to say…she was somewhat speechless after that, she didn’t really know what to say.
I want to see what religious ppl and other think about this. I find it an interesting topic for discussion
Perhaps the qualities you are talking about are those representing the moral standards of an individual. In which case, you were a product of your early environment as much as anything else. If you were raised in a family that had high standards, you are more likely to acquire those standards, regardless of whether you attended church as a youth.
Look at it from another angle. You’re challenging her faith in something that has been there her whole life. To her it is real. To her your lack of belief may actually scare her to some degree. If you object to her attending church, and if you care about her feelings, I would be less direct in your approach on these issues.
It might be better to pursue a more tactful approach
Let’s assume you are interested in this girl, and one of her requirements is that her spouse attend church with her. Even assuming you believe nothing of what is being taught there, is she worth the investment of one hour a week, to sit beside her, making her happy in the process? What if she mentions that it is important for her to be married in her church? To have the kids baptized there? Is she worth it or not? Is that hypocritical? Is making your spouse happy hypocritical? Not.
I would be very cautions of becoming critical of her beliefs unless she asked for my opinion. Then I would not unload on her family tree for also attending.
You’ll soon hear about how unreasonableness her beliefs are, and if she were intelligent she would think differently, and how religion is misleading her into believing all these things, that can’t be proven, or even demonstrated, just so they can get the $10.00 per week that she puts in the collection plate or some other evil de jour.
A woman who stands before you appearing to be speechless.–isn’t. Still waters run deep. (and sometimes very cold).
Thanks
I would put this in the idea that humans are sociable creatures by nature (violent too sometimes) and that morality thou seemingly the province of religion is a natural thing necessary for the existance of complex socieites.
Religious people just tend to think God put it into them...
If you do think Religion helped develop values... why do people TEND to follow the Law even when its not enforced by a policeman ?
Actually this one I rather disagree with. I was raised as an agnostic/atheist. What I was told, from the time I was very little, is that people who believe in any god are deceived by the minister if they are in a developed country, or ignorant of the truth through lack of opportunity for education, if they are from an undeveloped country. This message was sent from my both my parents and my grandparents. If there was a god it was unknowable by humans and people who believed in it were foolish.
How does a child rebel against liberal parents? By becoming conservative. I just chose religion as my form of conservatisms over politics. However, surprisingly I found something real in what I had always been told was false. I didn’t have then, and still don’t have objective proof to offer about my sense of connectedness with God. However, well past the age that rebellion against parents should be over my belief has remained strong. I know, from objective observation, that I am much happier than my cousins, who were raised as I was.
Does this mean I am a better person than they are, purely because I believe in a Deity and they don’t? Decidedly no. It does mean I use a different scale when evaluating choices I can make in my life. That may have been what your
The last two sentences should have been: That may have been what your friend was trying to say. People of faith often make choices based on different criteria than people who don’t believe in any form of afterlife.
But if this is true, then why is religion necessary if most religious people will say that religion will result in a better person. Im sure that in some cases it does, and some it doesn’t. The point is that it is not NEEDED to make a better person.
I wasn’t actually questioning her belief (and i told her that from the start), I merely was putting forth my view point and was asking her to see if she could explain her ideals/beliefs after I had asked my questions.
See I have a problem with this. I was actually interested in her (how did you know? lol). And that’s why we have discussed this topic before, but not in as much detail as this time. My problem with what you wrote is that, if she is worth it, I should sit in church, listening to something I purely disagree with, give money to a system i disagree with, and basically fake my belief in it. That in itself is a huge problem because it would go against what I believe in (lying to a great extent). At the same time you should ask to her (hypothetically) whether I was worth the sacrifice. If she would not go to church, or NOT baptise kids. I can tell you right now, with certainty, that her answer would be that it’s NOT worth it. Even the person she is with now, who is also very religious but of a different branch of catholicism, she has problems with and doesn’t know whether “it’s worth it”. All this because their beliefs are too strongly embedded in them again.
Phew…that’s a lot to chew there. Please keep this going
“Religion” and “Spirituality” or “Belief” are two different things. Why people persist in combining the two is beyond me. Christianity is a Religion. Worshipping God is Belief. “Religion” has caused more problems in the world than it has ever solved. The Crusades, the Jesuits in the New World, Charlamagne, etc.
Karl Marx was right when he said “Religion is the opiate of the masses”, because being RELIGIOUS takes no effort! I can do all sorts of things RELIGIOUSLY…be on time to work, give to charities, read a certain newspaper or magazine.
BELIEF is what takes work. Believing in something that you haven’t seen yet you know is real is not always an easy thing to do. That’s why “belief” and “faith” go hand in hand. I’m not going to turn into a Bible Nazi and go off on those of different Belief Systems. That’s not my place to do. All I’m saying is that people need to stop confusing Religion and Religiousity with Spirituality and Belief.
I think most religions boil down to the fear of ones own mortallity and the question of “whats happens to my inner self when I die?”
I’m not christian or jewish or muslim but I ask the same thing and I don’t find my comfort in religion. I think when you die thats it.
On the other hand…if belief in religion comforts you for what is the inevidable (death) then go that way.
Good question. Let me see if I can better explain the difference between the two.
Yes, Religion and the Belief in that Religion DO go hand in hand. You can’t subscribe to the Christian religion without believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He was crucified for the sins of the world and rose from the dead three days later.
Here is where the separation of Belief and Religion come in…RELIGION is the “Place”, if you will. The Church…the Synagogue…the Mosque. Religion is the framework that delineates WHAT you believe in.
BELIEF is faith in action. Belief is taking what you believe in and making it real to you. Like the bible says, “Faith without works is dead…”. To me, belief is taking that faith and acting on it in such a way that it becomes meaningful and real to me.
Does that mean I don’t think for myself? NO. I think that God gave us brains and minds to ask questions and pick things apart to see what makes them work. I think He also expects us to do that in out Spiritual lives. I think it was Aristotle (correct me if I’m wrong please) who said “The unexamined life is not worth living”. This doesn’t just apply to our physical life IMO. I think it applies to our Spiritual life as well.
Thanks for the clear up johnnyk, just one thing I have a hard time understanding still.
I believe that faith and belief are two separate things. When people say " I have faith that that patient will survive". What is he having faith in? If he’s religious, its probably in God, but whatif you’re not religious? then what??
that is why I (not being religious), don’t really believe in faith. I would never say " I have faith that…", rather I would say something “Man I hope he survives”
So faith and belief IMO are two separate things
Back to the OP:
I find it strange that some Christians (but by no means all Christians, I want to be clear about that) think things are wrong only because the Bible says so. I remember there was at least one person in my ethics class who was utterly shocked when we moved on from the “divine law” system of ethics to discuss why things are wrong.
We agnostics and atheists are still capable of following moral “rules”, we just don’t assume things are only wrong because God said so. Just because some agnostics/atheists are hedonists, that doesn’t mean all agnostics/atheists are hedonists (hmm, best make sure I didn’t say anything that could be taken as “all Christians think…”, so I’m not being a hypocrite ).
This is a vastly over-simplified, and to a great extent inaccurate, portrayal of religion, and here I mean specifically, Christianity.
Christianity not only answers this question, but also those philosophers have been asking for centuries: who are we, how did we get here, what is our purpose.
These are not simple questions, and cannot be given trivial answers.
The Christian answer is this:
“…when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves…since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing them, now defending them.”
Romans 2:14-15
In modern English, every person has imprinted in his heart and conscience God’s law, and will be judged accordingly if never presented with the Gospel. Jesus lived and died according to the law for two reasons; to demonstrate that only the perfect Son of God could do so; and by doing so, then abolish the law in favor of God’s grace. I realize this is a much too brief answer, but realize that I’m giving it quick and easy, rather than a full-blown chapter-and-verse answer.
Perhaps you should consider the essence of this comment. Re-read your above statement, substituting any teaching parents might impart, and ask yourself if it makes sense. I consider this a faulty reasoning; while children naturally believe their parents, as they mature into adulthood, those teachings come under review; a normal human condition, to reassess, re-evaluate previously held opinions (on a variety of topics, to be sure). If religious faith were simply an imparted wisdom, surely it would subsequently fail to hold the devotion of thinking adults. I think you do a disservice to religious faith to dismiss it as little more than “wishful thinking”.
Whoa…not being religious I have a big prob with this statement…obviouslY :P. But i can understand that that is the answer that religious people would turn to…still, it does not comfort me.
Another thing that has come to mind talking about this. I would like to think that if the situation were to arise where I would have ABSOLUTE unquestionable proof that god does actually exist, that I would change my point of view. Yet at the same time, I get the feeling (and this is of course just personal observation)that most religious people, if presented with facts that god did NOT exist, that they would still not change their beliefs on the whole situation.
right, wrong???
This is absolutely true. Church/Religion is no guaranty of anything other than where you’ll likely be for an hour a week. Most good people have acquired positive qualities from their families and the quality of parenting they received. Others have been successful in spite of the a poor family life and poor parenting. Religion has helped some become moral, but has had no part in the lives of other very moral people. There are also examples of immoral people on both sides. On the other hand, if I were looking for qualities in a potential partner, such as honesty, moral consciousness, and the like, I believe my chances of finding this person might be greater at a church service than other many other places.
BTW, how did I know you were interested? It came through in your post. The fact was not lost that there was a potential here for a Mrs. Methos. I could sense that you had a bond with this person by the way you approached her feelings. For a person without a belief in this, you were almost gentle enough. Almost
Methos, there is a old saying "You can take the boy/girl out of the country, but you can not take the country out of the boy/girl. I would add that in many cases it would apply to religion too. Lets look at your options here.
You can be untrue to yourself, and in so doing know that you are doing something for someone else you care about. You would probably go to a movie you didn’t like if she wanted to do so, you would pay for a ticket you would get no benefit from, and you would see something you didn’t believe in. But when it was over, she would see your willingness to sacrifice for her. Here, you make her happiness a priority. (this is not hypocritical, because the reason motivating your actions are true, “for her happiness”, and you are not sitting there pretending to be anything other than attentive to her needs)
You can work out some kind of a truce. She is allowed to participate in her religion, and you do nothing for or against her participation. Of course, this will prevent her from having things she may have dreamed of from for a long time. Here, you only allow that she can be satisfied, never happy with the situation.
Finally, if it truly isn’t worth the dilemma you face in balancing your feelings or resentment (for yourself and her) for going through the motions of #1 above, then you have to realize that even if she did leave her religion for your sake, she would always have feelings similar to those you express in your response regarding attending church. If this is the ultimate result, I would suggest look carefully at what is likely to happen if either of you pushes the issue and forces the others compliance.
The final issue would be the offspring. That is one that I can’t touch. I can see it from both sides, and I can see that there could be big problem here. This is one thing that, if you do pursue the relationship, needs to be brought out and discussed before any serious commitments are made.
It’s ironic that she is apparently Catholic. My first love was Catholic. We were together for a year and a half. I thought that I would end up Catholics, not that I wanted to, but because she was the world to me and I would have done anything possible to make her life happy and meaningful. Then she found another person and left. Go figure?
There is the proof of how sensitive she is to these matters.
Methos, I would approach this as you have, carefully limiting the scope and length of the discussing to maybe even a single issue. You don’t want to over do it and close any doors.
Be sure she feels that you have genuine concern for her and her feelings, neither criticizing, or belittling her or her beliefs. It is Time, Patients and Concern alone that will get you where you are going.
My comment that referenced “scaring” her referred to the impression that she may get of you if sue didn’t fist know the kind of person you were. I didn’t realize that you had known her previously. Had she not known you, and had that comment come up early in the discussion, you would probably not see that a door had closed in her willingness to listen to you. I would like to suggest you read something, not for the religious value, but with an eye as towards how to approach her in this matter. It is a letter written by Paul, to an early Christian community. The purpose of reading this is to see, from her view, how a message should be delivered. You can ignore the source, even the message, but look at how Paul presents his message.
1 Cor 13:1-13.
Good Luck!!
Ok…let me ask you a question…do you BELIEVE the sun will rise tomorrow or do you have FAITH that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has?
See…saying that “Belief is faith in action” or even vice versa. doesn’t prevent these two things from being separate. One works on the other. The Apostle Paul refers to faith as “…the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Therefore, FAITH in the existence of God has to come first, THEN the BELIEF which is the faith becoming real to the person who believes.
I know what I’m trying to say, but I’m not sure if I’m saying it right or if I’m getting my point across. “RELIGION” won’t get you ANYwhere. If that’s all it took, then the bible would be much thinner, Jesus wouldn’t have had to die and God would have taken a vacation sometime after the book of Daniel. God doesn’t ask us to be “Religious”…He asks us to have faith and believe. Is that a harder thing to do? Maybe. But nothing worthwhile is ever easy!
Well the answer to this is simple…sort of. I Believe that that sun will rise tomorrow because it is part of a tremendously complex system, a balance in nature i suppose. And as long as this ‘system’ is intact, the sun should rise. If it is disturbed, then the system will be affected.
bahh…i don’t know where I was going with this. Hope that sort of answered your question
