And you though gov't bureaucracy was bad!

Okay so we are all evil, no good, sinning humans right ...

Romans 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one".

And the only way to be saved is to recognize Jesus as our savior, right? Well, then how come God takes the trouble to record everything we did.

Mark 4:22 "For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested".

Revelations 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

You would think that this whole process could be greatly simplified by a simple boolean flag. Did this person accept Jesus as their savior? true/false. Why bother recording all the sin if it will all either be erased or not.

Like the subject says... and you think gov't bureaucracy is bad.

And another question, although maybe I should post this in Biblical Erracy.

John 5:29 "And shall come forth: They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

(bolds are mine)

Ummm ... correct me if I am wrong but doesn't mean:

1) You have to accept Jesus as your savior AND do good deeds. I.e. Bad deeds will be counted against you.
2) Good deeds count regardless of whether you accept Jesus or not.

I am pretty certain that #2 is invalid because there are other sections in the bible that state you must accept Jesus, so that leaves us with #1 as a very distinct possibility. (Although I hold out that John 5:29 offers some hope to those who do good deeds).

No sweat, it's ALLAH!

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Zymurgist

As I recall (and this is probably very out of date) bad people who believed in Jesus went to purgatory to pay for their sins, then were eventually purified and went to heaven. Did they get rid of purgatory? I know the little pagan babies don't go to limbo anymore, limbo was tossed out a while ago. Someone who is more up on Christianity help me out here.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

Based on what I have heard Christian evangelists saying, my understanding is that any sin can be forgiven as long as you "accept Jesus into your heart". If God is this forgiving, why doesn't he forgive people for their non-belief?

Well the ultimate sin in most Christian beliefs is that of unbelief. If you do not believe in God until you see him, then you have not had faith and therefore he does not want to spend eternity with you.

Not all Christian groups believe in purgatory or limbo. I believe that all people below the age where they know the difference between right and wrong who die go to heaven. That is babies and small children would go to heaven, if they died.

I believe that works will not get you into heaven, but if I am truly a Christian then I will act like Christ and that includes doing good things for those around me (good works so to speak).

After all Christ said, "Faith without works is dead." He did not say it would keep you out of heaven, but it was useless to God.

Jeffery

[Pickman's Model]

As I recall (and this is probably very out of date) bad people who believed in Jesus went to purgatory to pay for their sins, then were eventually purified and went to heaven.

Not to sound like Bill Clinton here, but it depends on what you mean by "bad". If by bad you mean somebody who once knew the Christian message of salvation and decided to reject it, then they're heading for a worse place than purgatory. Salvation is a gift; you can refuse it or send it back just like any other gift. If by bad you mean somebody who has accepted the gift of salvation but has screwed up here and there, knows it, and is sorry for it, those are the people who go to puragtory.

Did they get rid of purgatory?

No, purgatory is still a valid doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church.

I know the little pagan babies don't go to limbo anymore, limbo was tossed out a while ago. Someone who is more up on Christianity help me out here.

Limbo was never an officially-sanctioned dogma of the Church; that was just an idea that some theologians came up with to satisfy a legalistic interpretation of acceptance of Christ as Savior before the age of reason; i.e., you have to accept Christ to be saved---but what if you die before you're old enough to do so? A just God wouldn't send the poor little mites to hell; and yet, they "obviously" can't go to heaven. So they came up with limbo. Nowadays, though, most theologians would say that God is just, and He'll take the "unsaved" babies just as they are, no limbo needed.

Based on what I have heard Christian evangelists saying, my understanding is that any sin can be forgiven as long as you "accept Jesus into your heart". If God is this forgiving, why doesn't he forgive people for their non-belief?

Well, if you "accept Jesus into your heart", as our fundy brethren are fond of saying, then you're no longer an unbeliever, are you? So there's no unbelief to forgive. On the other hand, why do people not believe? If it's due to honest ignorance of God, or due to anti-religious brainwashing by people other than the individual in question, God is probably going to be quite a bit more tolerant than He would of somebody who knows all about Him, but still refuses to believe, for whatever reason---which would constitute rejection. And while God is forgiving, He is also just. If someone's unbelief is deliberate (again, rejection of God) then God will abide by their decision to reject Him, and allow them to choose to go to hell, if that's what they really want. But, like I said, if you decide you really want to be forgiven for your unbelief, then ipso facto, you're not an unbeliever any more.

Well the ultimate sin in most Christian beliefs is that of unbelief. If you do not believe in God until you see him, then you have not had faith and therefore he does not want to spend eternity with you.

Not exactly; the ultimate sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Rejection of God is another biggie. Not having had faith is sort of a grey area---it depends on the state of your soul at death. If you have an actual deathbed conversion, you should be okay.
God, for His part, would just as soon spend eternity with EVERYBODY. Scripture is loaded with references to this effect; God does not want anybody to perish. However, He allows people to make their own choice. They don't have to choose to spend eternity with God; they can freely opt to go to the other place, if that's what they want. You will notice I said nothing about "God sending people to hell". God does not send people to hell. People freely choose to go to hell, all on their own. You can end up in hell, sure---but you have to ask to go. It's your choice. Now mind you, I'm only quoting doctrine from the R.C.Ch., (which, as a practicing Papist mackerel-snapper, I believe). When it comes to Protestant or Orthodox bodies, you may get a slightly different interpretation, depending on the denomination in question. But, the Bible we all have in common says that God is Love, Literally Personified; and desires all people to be saved. That doesn't alter or change.

[Satan]

Nowadays, though, most theologians would say that God is just, and He'll take the "unsaved" babies just as they are, no limbo needed.

Well, I hope all the babies in limbo got promoted then. I mean, they could have just been cut loose into space!

I am fascinated by the ritual of all religions, even if I am equally as dubious about them. And also, there is a difference as to what Catholics think on this subject and what Christians think.

And they don't overlap as much as one would suspect. My grandma was as devout a Catholic for all of her 98 years. But my Christian sister tells me that she would go to hell technically, though she herself hopes that God understands her well-intentioned attempts at salvation and takes that into consideration.

I think she is just trying to justify worshipping a God who would send her beloved grandmother to hell, but that's between her and her God...

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Brian O'Neill
CMC International Records
rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html

ICQ 35294890
AIM Scrabble1
Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

[Kat]

We interrupt this program to bring you this late-breaking news:

Catholics are Christians.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled progam.

[MrKnowItAll]

Pickman's Model:

They don't have to choose to spend eternity with God; they can freely opt to go to the other place, if that's what they want. You will notice I said nothing about "God sending people to hell". God does not send people to hell. People freely choose to go to hell, all on their own. You can end up in hell, sure---but you have to ask to go. It's your choice.

Is that how it works? OK. Well I don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. However, just in case, I would like it officially noted here and now that I choose to not burn in hell for all eternity. Thank you.

[Pickman's Model]

And also, there is a difference as to what Catholics think on this subject and what Christians think.

As noted by another poster, Catholics ARE Christians. You undoubtably mean Protestants, who are also Christians. So are Eastern Orthodox. But that's okay, as I think we all knew what you meant anyway.

My grandma was as devout a Catholic for all of her 98 years. But my Christian sister tells me that she would go to hell technically, though she herself hopes that God understands her well-intentioned attempts at salvation and takes that into consideration.

It's always refreshing to hear of these folks who are so thoughtful concerning God's workload that they help Him out with the heavy decisions about who's going to be damned and who isn't. I tried to apply for the job once, but the archangel on the desk that day told me that the Almighty reserves all such judgements entirely for Himself. When I asked about all the Lord's Helpers For the Hellbound, the archangel smiled and said their decisions didn't count. He kindly gave me some pamphlets to read on the elevator trip back down, and one of them said, unequivocably, that no mortal knows who's going to hell and who isn't; it said the reason why is due to the fact that said mortals do not possess the proper instruments of discernment to render such judgements, and they also, not being omniscient, do not have all the facts concerning such cases at their disposal. The Recommendations For Mortal Servants of God in the table on the back page suggested that all humans should pay attention to how they live their own lives, and to avoid passing judgement on other believers at all costs. For one thing, they can't influence the outcome of a departed soul one way or the other, and on top of that, Judger of Souls is a non-union position that only the CEO of the Company can occupy.

In short, your sister doesn't have any more idea about where your devout grandma went than I do. If she was as devout as you say, she probably went Directly to Heaven, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200.00; but I am not the decider on these things, thank heavens. One thing that I CAN tell you, and that is that your grandma was NOT, I repeat NOT automatically and immediately damned simply because she was Catholic. I have met sincere, devout, and faithful Protestants who thought that when a Catholic died, they were hauled down to the basement and put on a greased chute that went straight to Gehenna. 'Tisn't so. (We actually go to a Turkish coffee shop in east Philadelphia first. They have great raisin turnovers there.) My point is: don't believe everything you hear about "who's going to hell and who isn't". Whoever is telling you this, be he the Pope, your mother, your boss, Michael Jordan, Cecil, or me, they don't know what they're talking about.

Is that how it works? OK. Well I don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. However, just in case, I would like it officially noted here and now that I choose to not burn in hell for all eternity. Thank you.

You're welcome. Just for kicks, though, keep in mind that prior to Anton van Leeuwenhoek finding little microscopic animals in a microscope in 1677, nobody believed THEY existed, either------but that sure didn't stop them from killing whole boatloads of people, now, did it? My point there, however, was that for those of us who believe in God, He offers us a choice to obey Him or not, and such choice will go a long ways towards deciding where we're going to end up. For those of you who don't believe in God, I have no idea what becomes of you, but I do know that I, thankfully, am not the one who makes the decisions (see above).

[Czarcasm]

In the meantime, we atheists will do good because it's a good thing to do.
See ya in hell! .

[jinky]

Pickman's Model: LOL. I wish all the religionists here had your sense of humour.

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Bíonn caora dhubh ar an tréad is gile (there is a black sheep even in the whitest flock).

[Powers]

I tried to apply for the job once, but the archangel on the desk that day told me that the Almighty reserves all such judgements entirely for Himself. When I asked about all the Lord's Helpers For the Hellbound, the archangel smiled and said their decisions didn't count. He kindly gave me some pamphlets to read on the elevator trip back down, ...

See, now I would consider this to be a reasonable proof of God's existence. =) Perhaps not in the legal sense, but I know I'd start praying PDQ. =)


Powers

[tracer]

Kat wrote:

Catholics are Christians.

Not if you believe some of the ultra-conservative Christian talkradio stations I've tuned into. Man, you'd think the Pope was the Beast of Revelation with some of the things those Protestant bible-bangers said about Catholicism.

[Strainger]

tracer

Man, you'd think the Pope was the Beast of Revelation with some of the things those Protestant bible-bangers said about Catholicism.

Uhhh, no, that's Jack Chick. Jack Chick = Catholic (et al) basher. Protestant <> Jack Chick.

[AuraSeer]

Pickman's Model wrote:
[quote]But, the Bible we all have in common...[/b]

By the words "we all", I hope you're not trying to include me. I've got my own religion, thanks very much, and it has nothing to do with your Bible.

(Apologies if this sounds rude, I don't mean it to. It's just very late and I've been breathing paint fumes for a few hours.)

[AuraSeer]

See, I can't even do the UBB code right. But I think everybody knows what I meant.

[Pickman's Model]

Go back up and re-read my post again, Aura. First I mention Catholics, then Protestants, then Orthodox. Then I say, "The Bible which we all have in common". I never said anything about other religions; my statement was restricted to Christian faiths, and not intended to be all-encompassing. Besides, when it comes to religious writings, it's pretty difficult to get people to agree. "That which we all have in common" does not refer to the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Dhammapada, the Granth Sahib, the Book of Mormon, and the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russel, Helena Blavatsky, and Gerald Gardner.