Moved from MSPIMS Forum:Note to Self - Die Young

Great Debates
1

Originally Posted by kpinocchio
[Did Jesus not tell us that we will not suffer judgement for our sins if we accept hime as our saviour? If so then does it not mean that a Christian who commits suicide will be forgiven?]

We were told to move to this forum by the moderator… I had responded to the folks in the subject forum who were expressing how death was an acceptable choice for those with unhappy or painful lives, i.e., promoting euthenasia.

To answer your question, a resounding YES! But what does “accept Him as our saviour mean?” The bible says that many will come to Him in that day (the day of judgement), completely believing they had been christians during their lives, even saying “have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Mat 7:22). But it goes on to say that God says to them, “depart from me.” That means they go to hell. Note that it says “MANY” will come to Him. “Many” to God means a whole lot more than we like to think it means.

Compare this to 1 John 2:3, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” So again, do you know that you have accepted Him, and HOW do you know? Is there still a lot of sin in your life? Don’t answer until after you’ve read the commandments (Exodus 20). Are your sure of your salvation? What makes you think you are saved?

If you are, great. But I would never say anything to anyone to make them feel better about their future when I don’t know for certain that they are saved. To do so would be the greatest crime I could commit against that person.

2

Let us assume that this worldview is true and that a Supreme Being exists who sends some people to heaven and others to hell.

Who would serve such a monster? Your god is a supernatural Saddam Hussein, creating His own private torture chamber to punish people for trivial offenses, and not for some set amount of time but for all eternity.

I’d rather suffer the infinite pains of Hell than serve such a fiend.

3

Gobear raises an important point, CyberGuy.

By any reasonable standard of right and wrong, and of fairness (which many of us believe is inculcated by God, or by our parents and society based ultimately on God’s standards), the idea that one must “accept Jesus as Lord and Savior” and in consequence not be condemned for one’s sins, while those who do not, no matter how “good” a life – measured by those selfsame commandments – they have lived, end up in eternal torment, seems totally unfair.

The classic examples are Hitler putatively converting on his deathbed versus Mohandas Gandhi.

I detect from your OP a suggestion that obeying God’s commandments is an element of this salvation process, that it’s not the pure “accept Jesus” concept of many evangelists.

But would you want to go into this a bit more? That whole idea of fairness and just judgment does seem to be a bit out of kilter – and if following the commandments is necessary, which commandments, and why them?

I have my answers to this – but it’s your thread; I won’t hijack it to push mine except as part of a lively discussion. Explain your position more, and why you hold to it.

4

The pure “accept Jesus” concept of many evangelists is a lie straight from hell itself. But I won’t go into that now.

Your initial detection is wrong, but the fundamental “worldview:” If you do good things you go to heaven - if you do bad things you go to hell - but if you do more good things than bad things you may go to heaven, but maybe not, because maybe the bad things were more bad than the good things were good, or maybe a million other thoughts about heaven and hell that lead nowhere. That is, they don’t give you an answer so you can know you will go to heaven.

You can do bad things your whole life and go to heaven (remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus? (No? Watch the movie)), or you can do good things your whole life and go to hell.

You think, like the pharisee’s that Jesus always rebuked, that keeping the law is a means of salvation - wrong. No one can keep the law. Try it for a day. The law was given to show men their sinful nature and need for a savior. To do good things (keep the law) is to mock God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for sin. If you could do “good enough,” what did Jesus die for? Why do you need a savior if you can save yourself? Only when our hopeless condition before God hits us can we even know our need of a savior who will remove the penalty for sin (hell).

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Ever done that? Then you are a blasphemer. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Ever done that? Jesus said, if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery already with her in his heart. God looks at your heart. You can’t hide your thoughts from Him. Once the guilt of sin begins to grip your heart, upon hearing the law, God may begin speaking to you about salvation. Without the law, there is no knowledge of sin.

5

He did? Well, I guess that pretty much settles my hash. Is there any advantage in calling ahead to make reservations?

6

What am I missing?

7

Im sure they already have a place just for you…muahahaha

8

You’re mixed up. *Anubis * looks at your heart, weighing it against a feather.

9

Salvation through greasy burritos?

10

Always call ahead. Maybe you can upgrade to a suite.

Hey, how hot do you think that jacuzzi is, anyway?

11

If I’m reading this right, you’re dismissing the idea because it cannot offer certainty, rather than whether it is true or not. I’d rather be unsure than simply wrong, but utterly certain I was right.

12

It’s times like this that I’m glad I’m a Gnostic Agnostic.

Remember, God is Love.
Would an all-Loving deity send His children to eternal torment?

I could never worship a God like that, because a ‘super’ being which plans on punishing you for eternity if you ‘screw up’ is not God, but Shaitan.

Hate breeds hate, love breeds love.

13

Welcome, CyberGuy. I’d like to discuss this point that you made here.

First, I should perhaps introduce myself so that you know my background and where I am coming from. My name is Zev Steinhardt and I like in New York City. I am an Orthodox Jew. As such, I do my best to keep the mitzvos (commandments) that God commanded in the Torah.

Having said that, I certainly make no claim to perfection. I think we can agree that Man is not perfect, correct? People are fallible and have their foibles and their temptations and thier failures.

However, I sincerely disagree with your presumption that the commandments were given only to show that they couldn’t be kept.

Firstly, it would be entirely cynical for God to give a set of commandments solely to set us up to fail.

Secondly, if that was the point, then why would God have to give 613 commandments? Why not simply give five or six impossible ones?

Thirdly, your thesis is contradicted by Dueteronomy itself. Chapter 30 (11-14) teaches us that the performance of the commandment IS possible. It’s not a heavenly task at all, but one that every person can accomplish if they want.

Lastly, your whole argument exists on the premise that Jesus’ sacrifice is neccessary to atone for sin (as you said: If you could do “good enough,” what did Jesus die for? Why do you need a savior if you can save yourself?). I, however, don’t accept that premise. I don’t accept that Jesus was the messiah; I don’t accept that he died for our sins; I don’t accept that it is the messiah’s role to die for our sins; and I don’t believe that one must believe that Jesus was the messiah to avoid hell.

It is the Jewish belief that mankind is perfectly capable of finding favor in God’s eyes. Every person has free will to choose whether or not he will keep the commandments and God punishes and rewards based on that metric. When (after many, many years, hopefully) my turn comes to stand before God, I will have to give an account of my life. I will be punished for the wrongs that I did and did not repent for, and will be rewarded for the good that I did.

So, my question to you is this: what would you say to me? And please keep in mind that quoting the New Testament isn’t going to mean anything to me - I don’t put any stock in it.

Zev Steinhardt

14

I stand right next to Zev on this one (although, technically, a bit to the left, I suppose.)

And I add: Would God lie? When God says that His commandments are eternal, for all generations, Cyberguy, do you think He lied?

And I also add: The Jewish belief is that God is a God of perfect justice. There’s not an either/or, heaven or hell, reward or punishment. If justice is perfect, then each person merits some reward (for their good deeds) and some punishment (for their bad deeds). While there may be an ultimate decree of punishment, traditionally Jewish belief doesn’t encompass hell and eternal torment, but merely oblivion (that soul shall be “cut off.”)

15

So, then, to obey God is wrong, bad and evil.

Gotcha. heads out to start robbing and murdering and worshipping false idols and coveting my neighbor’s goods

16

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.
Say what you will. Those verses say it all.

17

How was Jessica Alba, by the way? Or are you more the Anette Bening tpe?

18

You know, I’ve been hearing about a race of deformed mutants that live in the sewers, & worship a nuclear warhead.

Gee…that sounds so…spiritually fullfilling! <sparkley eyes>

Anybody know where the nearest launch silo is?

PRAISE GENERAL DYNAMICS!!

19

Nothing is more distressing than the image of Jesus squatting in the bushes by gates of Hell, waiting to pop out and ensnare those who dare to drift too close. The Jesus you describe is indistinguishable from Satan, the great punisher. You describe our Lord more like a doormat than a door — something on which men should wipe the dirt from their feet before entering the house of God. It is not because we are hopeless that we need a Savior; it is because we are bewildered. He does not grab our arms and throw us in the fiery pit of Hell; He offers his hand to guide us through the darkness. You describe mankind as the enemy of God, when we are in fact his beloved children. It is His desire that not one perish. He gives us the desires of our heart, and some of us do not desire to be with Him. He punishes no one. He judges no one. He is Who He is. The decision to be with Him or without Him is entirely our own.

“You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.” — Jesus (John 8:15)

20

This is also what Jesus says, although it’s been grossly misinterpreted. He uses the term “Gehenna,” which was a local trash dump that was constantly on fire. The reference to “eternal fire” did not mean eternal punishment, just destruction.