Pepe Le Pew...innocent cartoon, or stalker/rapist?

[kellibelli]

Remember those cartoons?
The way he tries to force himself on the poor hapless black kitty (who unfortunately has a mishap with the white paint) that he thinks is a skunk.

Isnt that a metaphor for the over amourous date who thinks the girl 'wants it" because of how she is dressed?

She never gets away, no matter what she does, and I never really found that funny...it was a little disturbing.

Is that what the animators were trying to convey?

Your thoughts?

[Boris B]

Interesting thought. I tend to take cartoon messages seriously, since they do subtly influence a lot of our thinking. Especially about sexual relations. Olive is always being harassed by Bluto (and whatever else he was called). It takes a vegetarian sailor to save her.

There is a crazy Betty Boop cartoon in which she is physically pursued by a ton of dirty old men. She just wants to do the boopity-boop; they want something else. Eventually she prevails, with the help of her loyal pooch Bimbo; I think they drop some 16-ton weights on some heads. The message to men: proposition women rudely, and at first you'll just make them nervous; eventually you'll get a weight dropped on your head. The message to women: keep a loyal dog around.

In the Pepe the skunk/masher case, I'm not as clear on the message. It could be: if you harass females, you are a skunk. It could be: if somebody thinks you're their type (a skunk), it's best just to speak up and say "I'm a cat you Gallic stink bomb!" It could be: chasing cats is fun and necessary, since all men are naturally skunks, and women are shy and mute. The latter is the only message that really irks me.

Interesting note: cats are almost always evil and predatory in cartoons, but not in this one. Hmm. Don't know what to make of that.

Anyway, I don't remember the cartoon very well. I thought the cat did eventually get away somehow, maybe by the paint washing off? In any case, as a kid I definitely rooted for the cat, since Pepe was such a goof (I didn't realize the testosterone factor till much later). Plus I like cats better than skunks.

[Mojo]

I just thought the cartoon was a knock against the french- they think that they're "zee greatest luv-airs, non?" even when being rebuffed. And they stink to boot.

[Ukulele Ike]

I always figured it tied into the elemental American urge to laugh at French people.

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Uke

[Ukulele Ike]

Yeah, like Mojo said.

[PunditLisa]

I suppose we'd know if Pepe ever made it to the casbaugh. Wherever THAT is.

[Boris B]

I think a casbah is like a kremlin.

How about the fact that Betty Boop is dating her own dog, Bimbo? Doesn't anyone find that just a bit, umm, odd?

And how about that chickenhawk, "who's gonna get me some chicken!"

And is Donald married to Daisy? Does anyone NOT think those three "nephews" are their bastard spawn?

[johnh/metalgod]

If Bugs Bunny dressed up as a black cat in drag and by some misfortune obtained a black stripe woul pepe le'pew stalk him?

What if Sylvester was really that little cat's boyfriend?

And yes, there are far too many "nephews" running around in cartoons! Even Popeye had 'em for crissakes!

[WallyM7]

I remember the cartoons and I'm embarrassed to admit that I never gave it a thought until now, Kelli. I just thought Pepe was a jerk. But I see your point. Now.

This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?

Gee, Kelli, now you've got me thinking about all the other cartoons.

Nice going. I was going to watch the football game.

It's a great OP. I'm going to bounce this off my wife right now.

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If you're an optimist, you haven't been paying attention.

[Johnny Angel]

Look, there's no attempt in these cartoons to send any message. Nobody watches Pepe LaPew and thinks he's behaving himself appropriately, and he is never shown to win. It's just a premise on which to connect a series of gags.

Honestly, these cartoons were never meant to be taken seriously, and they were created by people and at a time when no one would have ever imagined that people would take them this seriously. Yes, this kind of behavior is beyond what we would be comfortable presenting in a modern cartoon, but let's not be too judgemental.

[tracer]

WallyM7 wrote:

This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?

What do you mean "once in a while"? She flirted with Bluto every single friggin' episode! She practically begged Popeye and Bluto to fight over her!

And then when Bluto would win the fight (through devious means, usually), and be able to respond unopposed to Olive's flirting unopposed by "that runt sailor man", Olive would suddenly turn all frigid. Only then would Bluto start to commit Stage 1 Sexual Assault, requiring a downed Popeye to come to the rescue.

Face it. Olive was turned on by Bluto's aggression and imposing stature. She's like the heroine in a Rosemary Rogers novel.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

[WallyM7]

Shit.

I wasn't sure about it (it was so long ago)so I tried to play it safe and got caught.

I do believe you're right, Tracer.

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If you're an optimist, you haven't been paying attention.

[Holly]

"This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?"

They didn't just imply it, Wally. Don't you remember that Popeye cartoon where he and Olive were supposed to get married the next day and she had a nightmare about what life would be like as mother to his kids (played by the nephews in her dream); then when Popeye comes to pick her up the next morning she throws a dresser out the upstairs window onto his head? Popeye laughed and said, "Women... they're fickle!" (or maybe it was 'women... they's fickle')

The more I think about it, the more I think kellibelli has a good point. That skunk was scary, and I don't think the cat got away in the end. Mostly I remember the sheer terror in her eyes. It seems benign if you haven't been tormented by a maniacal stalker/ rapist.

[matt_mcl]

And is Donald married to Daisy? Does anyone NOT think those three "nephews" are their bastard spawn?

Sicko! Everyone knows that his nephews are the children of his sister Dumbella. Geez...

[Alphagene]

Yeah, and Roadrunner cartoons are amusing until you have been through the horror of ingesting Earthquake Pills.

And a friend of mine who was nearly killed after trying out this Rocket-Powered Rollerskates still can't sit through a full episode without crying.

[Satan]

Thank you, Alphagene...

IT'S A FUCKING CARTOON, PEOPLE!!

And The Smurfs are an allegory to a Biblical tale, what with Azriel the cat after them and all. And Mighty Mouse was sniffing opium in those flowers.

ARRGGHH!!!

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Yer pal,
Satan

[mikan]

Does anyone else remember the WB cartoon where one mouse (a smart city mouse, I think) explains to another mouse (dumb country mouse) the workings of the capitalist economic system? That was the whole cartoon, from beginning to end. Now what the hell was THAT all about?!
-- Oh, that's right, it was just a fucking cartoon. Duh.

[kellibelli]

Please keep in mind the origins of these cartoons, warner bros. created them for adults in the beginning, it was only after they found the childrens market that they geared them to the kiddies. Even then, they kept the hig level of adult content that sailed over the young heads, and made the parents chuckle.

I am not implying that they are somehow sanctioning assault, but almost all of the warner cartoons have an adult theme. What was the theme of these?

The writers were geniuses, Mel Blanc was one of the greatest men who ever lived (IMHO), and the animators/writers always made the cartoons a metaphor for life.

The coyote for example, his endless struggle to get the bird, even though he always just misses - painfully. A metaphor for the pursuit of happiness?

There is a wealth of material to analyze here, far more interesting that classic literature, and just as rich in its content.

I am not a popeye fan, so I cant comment on that one.

[danielnsmith]

You are knocking American cartoons for it's sexual overtones? For crying out loud people, look at the imported stuff!

My prime example is Sailor Moon which airs on cartoon network. The main characters are school girls who wear skirts so short that their underwear is visible. And this is a cartoon that is marketed towards kids in Japan.

From what I've heard from friends who've been overseas (in the military and such), the United States is practically the cleanest contury in the world when it comes to cartoon content.

Don't knock good old fashioned yankee cartoons until you've seen some from the old world.

[kellibelli]

Um...Daniel, can you read?

I just wrote:

The writers were geniuses, Mel Blanc was one of the greatest men who ever lived (IMHO), and the animators/writers always made the cartoons a metaphor for life.

I am most certainly not 'knocking' the cartoons....
Please go back, read the thread, and then give an opinion.

I also said:

There is a wealth of material to analyze here, far more interesting that classic literature, and just as rich in its content.

I just compared cartoons to friggin' SHAKESPEARE fo crying out loud!

I am trying to have a mature debate about cartoons if you dont mind! (get it? a mature debate about cartoons.)

[vanillanice]

I remember in a lot of the pepe cartoons,once the paint wore off the cat,he didn't want her anymore,then She suddenly wanted Him,and started pursuing Him! I think most cartoons are characters chasing another,and never catching them.

[Markxxx]

To answer the Olive Oyle question she was a tramp. I remember one cartoon both Bluto and Popeye ask her to marry her. How does she decide? Einy Meeny Miney Moe. I choose Popeye. So Bluto beats up Popeye and goes to the church. Hey Olive it looks like Popeye stood you up. What does she say "Ok Blutto your dressed I'll marry you."

Or the time she makes Popeye and Bluto shave (sings I want a clean shaven man.) then at the cartoon's end she dumps them both for a professor with a beard.

The list goes on and on.. And by the way usually Bluto can beat up Popeye straight up (well he is 3 times as big) till Popeye has to use spinach.

As for Pepe I will defend him. You will note the cat doesn't like him because he is a skunk, NOT because he is harrassing her. Poor guy is a testimonial to people with bad hygene that yet still strive to prove their worth in a hyper cleanly society.

[Atrael]

I also distinctly remember several cartoon that had a pro-America theme....about patriotism and such like...I don't think it too much of a stretch to assume that they might have put some adult innuendo in there as well.

[danielnsmith]

kelli, in your original question, you said you found it disturbing the way Pepe tried to force himself on the poor hapless cat. My comments were in response to your original post, not your second post where you changed from worrying about the theme of rape to the comparison to Shakespeare.

What you have done is like complaining about Larry Flint as a possible scum sucker to stating that he is the greatest pornographer of all time.

My comments were telling you that if you find American cartoons unsettling, then you should compare them to anime which can get pretty raunchy at times. More disturbing than just that, it seems that the Cartoon Network is now airing some of the stuff.

If you have time, watch an episode of Sailor Moon and tell me if it is more disturbing than Pepe Le Peu!

[Holly]

To me, the most haunting Popeye cartoon is the one that starts out as an actual Depression-era black-and-white movie. A little boy gets the tar beaten out of him by a gang of bullies. Crying, he picks up his Popeye book and the animation jumps off the page, so to speak. After a lesson from Popeye himself, the little boy gets his hands on a big can of spinach, wolfs it down, and proceeds to kick the bullies' behinds in a most impressive fashion.

I wonder how many wimpy little kids tried to imitate this cartoon and were disillusioned when spinach failed to give them the promised super-human strength?

And speaking of Wimpy, could this hamburger- gobbling cartoon character be a major cause of high cholesterol and heart disease among the Baby Boomers today?????

[kellibelli]

*sigh*

I find that ONE cartoon disturbing...just that one.
I am trying to debate the 'meaning' or 'theme' of that ONE cartoon.

My OP talks about the way PePe tries to force himself on the kitty....even children didnt find it funny. What were the animators saying. (Dont say its only a cartoon) We have seen posts from mambers talking about economic cartoons, political cartoons etc...so we KNOW they must have meant something.
Was there something going on at the time of PePe's creation that the animators are trying to convey?
Are they trying to show us that men can be sexually aggressive? That women really 'want it'? Are they poking fun at some social issue of the time?
I am not slamming the industry, in part of in whole. I love cartoons.

I merely thought this would be an interesting debate with people who watch as much cartoons as me.

That japanese stuff is crap. Watching sailor moon can actually SUCK the I.Q. point right out of your head.That fucking Pokemon too.

[Mojo]

And I'm telling you they're not condoning stalking, interspecial breeding, or painting white stripes on black cats- they're satirizing the stereotype of the French. Obviously too subtle.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

I agree with Mojo, and I disliked the PepeLePeu cartoons, even as a kid.

[mikan]

Obviously the cartoons are NOT simply satirizing the stereotype of the French (although they definitely do that). The whole thing about the cat being found desirable or not desirable on the basis of her "stripe," as has been pointed out above, is a key part of the cartoon and is not explained away by the French theory in itself. The Pepe cartoons have more going on in them than just that.

[kellibelli]

Thank you Mikan...

Give us more, what do you think is going on there?

See, this is what I was hoping for.

Petote Coyote, WHY didnt you like it as a kid?

[tracer]

Holly wrote:

then when Popeye comes to pick her up the next morning she throws a dresser out the upstairs window onto his head? Popeye laughed and said, "Women... they're fickle!" (or maybe it was 'women... they's fickle')

It was more like, "Confucious say, 'Female, she is fickle!' Ug-ug-ug-ug-ug-ug!", where the "ug"s are supposed to be Popeye's laugh. He might not have actually mentioned Confucious, but he was definitely making fun of Chinese accents.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

[mikan]

Apart from the stripe thing, I was just thinking that what makes this cartoon (as opposed to other WB cartoons build around the theme of chase/pursuit) is that the cat herself looks so terrified by the whole ordeal. Road Runner and Tweety Bird never show signs that they are concerned about their predicaments -- only this cat, and she can't even say "beep beep!"

The only thing that makes these cartoons funny (to me) is the comments about l'amour that Pepe makes to the "camera" as he prances daintily along after his prey. But of course I never appreciated them when I was a kid.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Dear Kellibelli:
I thought it was dumb -- I guess that is the best way to explain it. Here is this arrogant skunk (an animal I'm not particularly fond of) with an atrocious accent who bounces around in a ridiculous fashion.
Also, I thought it was always a one-note cartoon. Pepe LePeu always did the same damn thing. At least there was some variety to the other WB cartoons.

[mikan]

Whoops -- in my post just up there I meant to say "what makes this cartoon *disturbing* ...." (As if it mattered.)

[Johnny Angel]

You're all wrong, by the way. Popeye's quote on the subject of the inconstancy of women:

You can bet your last nickel

That women is fickle

Says Popeye the Sailor Man!

[TubaDiva]

According to Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies, The Complete Illustrated Guide to the Warner Bros. Cartoons, the first Pepe LePew cartoon was made in 1945 . . . the last one in 1962.

The great majority of these cartoons were not originally made for children . . . but for adults. It's only been since the advent of television that cartoons were relegated to children's fare.

Chuck Jones, the director of all those Pepe LePew cartoons, said he had Charles Boyer in mind when he created the character. . . he was famous for his "great lover" roles. This also answers another question in this thread: in "Algiers," Charles Boyer invites Hedy Lamarr to the "Casbah."

It's quite unfair to ascribe 1990's sensibilities to work that is of an older and vastly different time.

And besides, it's just a cartoon, dammit!

your humble TubaDiva

[Holly]

Ah, yes, they are just cartoons, created simply for entertainment value. Still, I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I watched a LOT of cartoons when I was a kid. Old cartoons, new cartoons... the same cartoons over and over. The writers may not have INTENDED anything by them, but my impressionable mind was indelibly marked. In fact, my very first crush was on... I'm ashamed to admit this... Popeye.

I remember some Tom and Jerry cartoon about death; Tom died and was going to be sent to Hell if he didn't get Jerry's signature on a note of apology so he spent the entire cartoon trying to convince Jerry to sign before it was too late. Watching this cartoon as an adult, it seems really benign- hardly worth remembering. As a kid, though, I thought it was awfully scary even though in the end you find out Tom was just having a bad dream. Even scarier was that one about the cat who's being driven insane by the cuckoo in the cuckoo clock. That one gave me nightmares.

Okay, maybe I was just a weird kid.

[mikan]

Well, one can say that it's "unfair" (to ... whom?) to ascribe 90s sensibilities to cartoons produced decades ago. But on the other hand, these cartoons are still being shown and watched today (aren't they?), tus there's no reason to look backward for some kind of pristine, original "meaning" to them. Whatever the creators of these pop cultural artifacts had in mind is entirely beside the point.
(Not trying to be contentious here; just doing what I can to help make Pepe LePew worthy of the Great Debates forum!)

[Ukulele Ike]

Holly, I don't believe that ANYONE looked upon J. Wellington Wimpy as a role model!

Well, he had a good vocabulary, I'll give him that, at least in comparison to the other residents of his town.

"I should like to invite you up to the house for a duck dinner...you bring the ducks."

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Uke

[Ukulele Ike]

Nightmares? Nightmares?

How about that 1935 Walter Lantz technicolor cartoon, CANDYLAND? With the giant anthropomorphic bottle of cod-liver oil bottle and the giant anthropomorphic spoon chasing the two little children? Talk about NIGHTMARES.

Hey, should we start a "most disturbing cartoon" thread over in MPSIMS?

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Uke

[mikan]

Sheesh. Try to ask a simple question about a skunk and a cat and pretty soon people are talking about cod-liver oil and anthropomorphic spoons. Teeming with relevance, eh?

[Ukulele Ike]

Well, I don't hear kellibelli complaining, mikan, ya vest-pocket Derrida. You complaining, kell?

Nope...she's out at Blockbuster with Holly, searching for a copy of CANDYLAND.

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Uke

[Holly]

Sh*t! We can't find it! That's okay; it'll show up on the Cartoon Network sooner or later.

[ThufferinThuccotash]

Is Pepe LePew an attempt by animator Chuck Jones to objectify women, to keep them subjegated, and to condone lascivous behaviour by men? Or is it more likely that the little skunk with the big libido is just a cartoon character loosely based on the then-popular actor Charles Boyer (who played a similar character named, coincidently, Pepe Le Moko in the movie Algiers)?

hmmmm, Could Be!!!

Or, maybe I've watched way too many WB cartoons...

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TT

"Believe those who seek the truth.
Doubt those who find it." --Andre Gide

[Markxxx]

A lot of you are still missing the point. The cat isn't offended by anything other than the fact that Pepe is a skunk. Pepe only finds her attractive because he thinks she IS a skunk.

She is repelled by Pepe because he smells. Not because he is harrassing her (which he is). She looks horrified because he smells. Not because of the sex.

The funny part is EVERYONE in the cartoon is repelled by Pepe, even the human characters. BUT he doesn't seem to know how repelling he is.

It is a great lesson in many areas. First Pepe only likes the cat as he thinks she is a skunk. This is akin to only dating inside your own race or religion. The cat is repelled by Pepe as he is a skunk. She doesn't even give him a chance she is frightened from the first time she sets eyes on him because he smells. This is a good lesson in not to judge people. Nice people sometimes stink.

BTW I think Pepe is the dullest of the WB lot, it is, like the Road Runner, a one shot joke.

[GuanoLad]

This is only loosely related, but what the heck I figured I'd throw it in just for larks.

In Britain in the sixties, there was this psychedelic little kids 'cartoon' (actually stop motion animation) called The Magic Roundabout and it was very much totally bizarrely out there. Famous for it's drug-crazed visuals.

They had such characters as Zebedee the thing on a spring, Dougal the dog, Brian the Snail, you had to see it. Dylan the hippy Rabbit was an obvious parody.

Anyway, in one episode, Ermintrude the cow finds these 'pills' where if she eats them she can 'fly'. And the whole episode has her trying to convince all the other characters how wonderful it is to take these pills and fly around.

Well, I'm so glad that was peddled to three year olds in the sixties, aren't you?

[prleone]

Yes, pepe's French! 'nuff said. At the time, all europeans were thought of as mashers towards women. He's also sympathetic, thinking all women are his, yet still loveless after many attempts in seven minutes. Besides, the cat is cute!

How's this for annoying?

Has anyone noticed on major networks, (Nickelodeon, TNT, Cartoon Network) our favorite old cartoons have been edited out of pure paranoia.

E.G.: Daffy Duck, in an attempt to upstage Bugs once and for all, swallows gasoline, uranium 238, nitro-glycerin and a match. This is edited to only include uranium 238 and the match! With TV ratings these days, editors think kids will try it. We're all ALIVE! I assume...

[Koxinga]

Has anyone noticed on major networks, (Nickelodeon, TNT, Cartoon Network) our favorite old cartoons have been edited out of pure paranoia.

(Trying out the HTML "quote" function for the first time here, hope it works.)

What I hate even more is the tendency of some networks to chop up classic cartoons to suit the shorter attention spans of today's rug rats. Sophisticated humor of the Chuck Jones variety gets relegated to same level as yuk-yuk gags of more recent and far inferior cartoons.

One thing I'd note, though, is the fact that a lot of classic cartoons don't get shown *anywhere* because of their racial or political content--especially the ones with Al Jolson-style blackface minstrel gags, or the more jingoistic WWII patriotic/propagandistic cartoons. Not that I think that they're children's fare--if anything, the kiddies simply wouldn't understand what they were seeing. But I think it's sad that most of the public has never been exposed to cartoons that are at least as classic as any repetitious Road Runner cartoon.

And whatever happened to Hekyll and Jekyll?

DHR

[the first supraliminal]

Women will decide in the first minute or so whether they really "want it" or not.

The rest is either true stalking, or just bullshit games.

So many times I've chased (stalked?, what's the difference?) women who were resistant, and when I stopped, it was a pathetic, "Why'd you stop?"



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There's always another beer.