Of Mergers and Martin, Or, The Upcoming Canadian Election

Some background:

Paul Martin officially became Prime Minister of Canada and leader of the Liberal Party on December 12. Four days early, the Progressive Conservative Party and the Canadian Alliance officially merged, creating the Conservative Party.

It is expected that Prime Minister Martin will dissolve Parliament in April, resulting in an election sometime in the summer.

I have several questions:

  1. How well is Martin doing in the polls?

  2. How well is the new party (which will not elect its’ leader until March) doing in the polls?

  3. If there is an election, how well should these parties, and the other parties of Canada (the NDP, the BQ) do in it?

Canada’s got politics? Who knew?

Seeing as how you’re closer to Canada than I am, you tell me.

Maaa–attt, paging the lovely and talented Matt_mcl

Anyway, I have a question–Is the guy’s name pronounced Mar-tin or Mar-teen?

I’ve never heard his name pronounced, and I’m half-afraid that Matt will be mad at me for either the fact that I only noted the NDP in passing, or the fact that I claimed that he was Mulroney in another thread as a joke.

I’ve always heard it pronounced Mar-tin by English-speaking newscasters. Mar-teen doesn’t sound correct to me as either an English or French pronounciation, actually, but I’m hardly a francophone.

I’ve not seen any recent polling numbers, but shortly after the Tory/Alliance merger, a poll came out indicating that the new party had less support than the combined total its predecessors had prior to the merger. Some put that down to disaffected Tories reconsidering their options, following the lead of Joe Clark, former leader of the PCs, who now sits as an independent PC in the House. Another explanation is that people just weren’t familiar with the new party.

One major event was that shortly after the merger, Tory MP Scott Brison of Nova Scotia, who had run for the Tory leadership against MacKay last summer, jumped to the Liberals instead of to the new Conservative Party. Some have put it down to sour grapes, but others have indicated that he didn’t want to be the token gay MP for a party that until recently had an MP like Larry Spencer as its family critic. (For further info on Mr. Spencer, search the Pit for a thread back in early December.) Mr. Brison has said that he’s always been a moderate conservative on fiscal issues (he’s an investment banker), and feels comfortable with the Grits under Martin, who have been shifting to the right.

On another front, the NDP is talking about making gains in Quebec, of all places, since the Bloc Québécois may be running out of steam. In addition to representing the soverignty issue, the Bloc tended to be left of centre on other issues, so if they collapse, the NDP might pick up the slack. So matt, M.P. may be a possiblity!!

And an article I read today suggested that Tories in the Atlantic provinces may be considering their options, similar to Brison, since many there see the merger as a hostile takeover by the Alliance.

All in all, the next election will be interesting!

(One minor nit to the OP: Martin became leader of the Liberals in mid-November, just in time for an impromptu get-together with the provincial premiers at Grey Cup in Regina. He didn’t get sworn in as PM until December 12.)

The “new” political party in Canada is simply the Reform Party (a western rump party) in disguise. The Liberals under Paul Martin will easily secure 190 seats in the next election. The Conservatives (reform, alliance, etc) will never form a government in Canada. They are too right-wing and radical - they are really pathetic.

Have no fear Canada, the LIBERALS have a divine right to Govern Canada - God is a LIBERAL !

Indeed, and current polls show the new party trailing the NDP in national opinion. Of course we all know that can mean squat in the first past the post election style. What I don’t understand is why papers seem to ignore this when talking about the new “combined-right” threat to the Libs. I honestly think the former PCs have shot themselves in the foot here.

Personally I’m hoping for a good showing by the NDP, so as to force the Libs back red from the Martin blue. :wink:

Martin is pronounced Mar-tin. He’s English by birth. Martin isn’t really doing much; he’s a mediocre leader who became leader more by noblesse oblige and lethargy than anything else.

The Liberals will win, but only because of the disastrous incompetence of the new Conservative party. Martin deson’t really seem to have a platform, which in a normal election spells disaster.

But the Conservatives have blown it, and they’ve been blowing it since the idiotic merger-that-wasn’t-a-merger that killed the Reform Party just as it was gaining some legitimacy.

For our American friends, let me explain. Up until 1993, Canada had three parties; the Liberal Party, the Progressive Conservative Party, and the New Democratic Party. The Liberals and Conservatives had won every election ever held in the history of the country; the Liberals had a winning record but it was close. The NDP, a relatively modern invention, was sort of the socialist junior party, always winning a few seats but never even close to getting out of third place.

By 1984, however, the Conservatives had a long losing streak going and so nominated Brian Mulroney for Prime Minister. Mulroney promised to unite both Western conservatives and Quebec nationalists. And he did; the PC party won the '84 election by a mile, absolutely annihilated the competition, and won by a healthy margin again in 1988.

By 1993, however, the party was flying apart at the seams. The Quebec nationalists, unhappy they had not gotten the sweet constitutional deal they were promised, left and became the Bloc Quebecois. The Western conservatives, dissatisfied with the party’s mismanagement of the economy and corruption, became the Reform Party. In the 1993 election the PC party was dealt was might have been the worst electoral defeat for a sitting government in the entire history of Western democracy. The Bloc and Reform Party became the leading opposition parties.

The Bloc has kind of faded in relevance. The Reform Party hasn’t. Reform was led by Preston Manning, a decent man but a poor politician. Manning had the same weakness his party did; they could not accept waiting for power. When they lost the 1993 and 1997 elections they just could not seem to accept it, demanding the Prime Minister’s resignation for all manner of stupid crap, demanding election calls, and their members openly doubted if the party would ever win an election.

Following 1997 the party inexplicably decided that two losses meant they would never win, and opened talks with the Progressive Conservative Party to merge. In a bizarre move, they decided to merge without actually getting the PC party to agree to it, renaming the party the Canadian Alliance and basically saying “All you PC guys come on over!” Few did, so in effect they just changed their name.

They also picked a new leader, Stockwell Day. Day was, in all honesty, probably the stupidest man to ever lead a federal party in the history of Canada. The Alliance ran the 2000 election campaign like total amateurs; it was impossible for the casual observer to ascertain what their platform was. The Liberals won a third straight election.

The Alliance thus determined that since the name change had not worked, what they needed to do was change their name again. The fact that they had run a ridiculously bad campaign led by an imbecile never entered into their post-action thinking. Anyway they have, at least, succeeded in convincing the Progressive Conservative Party to merge with them, about ten years too late.

The prevailing “wisdom” has always been that the dual existence of the Reform/Alliance Party and Progressive Conservatives was splitting the conservative vote, allowing the Liberals to win by default. This was accepted fact by both parties and loudly trumpeted by the conservative press as fact. The fact that many ridings were won by the Liberals wheer the combined Reform/Alliance and PC vote was greater than the Liberal vote was often cited. The problem is that this theory happens to be absolutely false, because the Progressive Conservative Party wasn’t really very conservative. PC voters - like, say, me - are just as likely to become Liberal voters as they are voters for the new Conservative Party. The Reform/Alliance/CPC is NOT the default second choice.

So the new Conservative Party has already driven away a lot of its social liberal/economic conservative voters, crippling it. The other problem is that the party does not have a leader and nobody who wants to be leader is really up to the job; the largest candidate now is Stephen Harper, a smart man who isn’t popular, and Tony Clement, an Ontario cabinet minister of mediocre skills who, to be kind of cruel, looks exactly like a kissing gourami.

It is thus not only certain that the Liberals will win, but it is quite likely the new Conservative Party of Canada will be utterly destroyed. The Liberal Party has the dual advantage of being a sitting government in good economic times AND representing the face of change to the public; a widespread perception is that Paul Martin will represent a big improvement over Jean Chretien. The CPC therefore has essentially zero appeal.

My prediction is therefore that the Conservative Party is doomed. They not only will lose the election; they will be decimated and will lose more than half their seats, especially if an Easterner like Tony Clement becomes leader. Their only hope is that an unexpected champion steps forward to save their ass from oblivion.

Out of 301 seats:

Liberal 219
BQ 43
CPC 24
NDP 15

<Snort!>

You do realise, Rick, that with that one vivid image you have forever ended any chance I could vote for Mr. Clement?

<Snort!>

Mostly a very good analysis, except in this one regard. I don’t think the Conservative Reform Alliance Party will lose many of the current Alliance seats, even in the event of an easterner winning their leadership. Albertans won’t vote Liberal. I think they’re still mad about the National Energy Policy or something. So the current Alberta seats (all of them, and they’ll add Joe’s I’d think) are safe. Most of the Saskatchewan seats are safe as well, though not to the same extent. Ralph as Minister of Finance has us all tickled pink here, it’s true, but most of the Alliance seats have large rural elements where people are ticked off about stuff like the gun registry and complete lack of support for agriculture through drought and BSE, so I’d expect most of them to stick with CRAP…errr, sorry, the official acronym is CPC, isn’t it? (As an aside, why the hell did they do that? The whole CPC thing, I mean. Should’ve stuck with just “Conservative Party”, no acronym, and let the press abbreviate it to Tories. CPC sounds like one of the deduction categories on my T-4.)) The Alliance seats in BC and Manitoba might be a little more vulnerable, but the comments I just made about their Saskatchewan seats largely apply to the Manitoban ones as well.

If an easterner is chosen as leader, it will be due to the largely western membership of CPC erroneously believing that Ontarians might vote for them if their ostensible leader is from there. I really don’t think this would hurt the western Conservative vote at all.

I expect the next Parliament to look very much like the current one with regards to all points west of Quebec.

As a man who stands on the right side of everything, I refuse to vote for the CPC on the basis that they are a party that is a thrown together project in a meager attempt to win votes for a group of men who are neglecting wehat being a politician really is (serving your constituents) and are instead focusing on gaining power, money and all that other nice stuff that comes with being in the government.

On the other hand, Paul Martin for the past 13 years has been a whiner who ahs complained about being the second fiddle to Jean Chretien, and for the majority of 2003 making a farce out of the caucus with the race for the leadership. However, he is a good politician. He was insturmental in restructuring the Canadian economy, which is still in good standing (see the recent job market figures for December). As well, he is a talented statesman who knows how to speak to people. As a guy from Regina, I also like the fact he made the man responsible for the country pursestrings a boy from my back yard (okay, my MP).

When all is said and done, come the election, I will be voting Liberal. FIrstly, because after a budget is passed, Martin will be dissolving Parliament so the rest of the country can affirm his place in the Cabinet, which is what should happen anytime the leadership of a governing party changes (hint hint Mr. Calvert).

I won’t be voting for the CPC/Tories/Reform/CRAP because of people like Larry Spencer, and Stephen Harper, and the fact that they still have Doris, oops, I mean Stockwell Day affiliated with that party. As well, I don’;t think they would be able to manage the affairs of the country, considering they can barely manage the affairs of their own party.

The NDP, well, Jack Layton himself has turned me off of that party. As well, living in Saskatchewan, I am getting turned off of the NDP in general, even though the provincial wing here is more centre than left wing.

The Bloq? If they ran a candidate out here, yeah, I’d vote for him just for the helluvit. But I know that they are just a passing fad, that will go away in another 5-10 years.

That pretty much sums it up, unless someone wants to discuss the merits of having a government run by the Natural Law Party.

RICKY,

Does it matter that Paul Martin is English…I thought he was Canadian. Oh, by the way…I think you’re a bigot.

Wow. Such valuable input on an otherwise-fascinating thread (speaking as an ignorant 'Murikan). Why not just take a shit in the Taj Mahal next time?

XPriest;

And I think you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, and I think you aren’t long for the SDMB. Paul Martin was born in English Canada (not English as in being from England.) If you don’t that that matters in Canadian politics, you’re ignorant. English-French politics IS Canadian politics.

For those who aren’t ignorant of what we’re talking about here, it now seems the “CPC”'s new leadership hopeful is… Belinda Stronach.

Her qualifications:

  • She’s rich
  • She once had her picture taken with Bill Clinton

That’s it. Some have tried to portray her as a successful businesswoman, which of course she is not - she inherited a big company from her Dad and so far the company is doing as well as it ever did when she wasn’t in charge. She’s an academic failure and there’s no reason to believe she’s either bright or personable. If they actually are stupid enough to nominate her, although I don’t think they will, they’ll do even worse than my pessimistic projection.

She’s also good looking, which never hurts in politics. Personally, I’d vote for Catherine Clark. She’s also a babe, but at least she’s had some campaign experience.

I meant to post earlier that that was a good sum up RickJay, my condolences on the loss of your party. I’ll also miss having another centrist party.

Side issue: Does this at all affect the future of the provincial PCs? Affect there support? Push them right? The OntarioPC party page doesn’t have a peep of comment AFAICT. (searches on merger,merged, alliance and “newly formed party” -both with&without the quotes- turn up nothing)

And hey, what the hell happened to the 25% support Orchard had at the convention when it came to merge vote time. Conspiracy!!

Actually, I saw Belinda Stronach on an episode of Venture. Part of the “back to the floor” series they did. I think with coaching she could be passably personable (she seemed OK to me). I don’t think an millionaire heiress is the way to go though optics-wise. :wink:

Rickjay gave a very good analysis, but he left some pieces out.

One of the reasons for the success of the Liberals is that they learned a lesson from the Bill Clinton playbook: Occupy the center. The current Liberal party is not the Liberal party of Pierre Trudeau. It’s much more conservative than that. The Liberals have actually done a pretty good job with fiscal stewardship, and those of you who know my political leanings know just how painful it is for me to say that.

The main Liberal mistakes from a conservative standpoint are: Royally screwing over the military, the gun registry, and Chretien’s idiotic hostility to the United States. Paul Martin has already promised to fix two of those things (improving relations with the U.S., and increasing funding to the military), and my gut feeling is that if the election coming up looks even remotely troublesome the gun registry may go in the garbage as well.

I also think Rickjay was a little harsh in his comments about Belinda Stronach. He says this:

From her bio:

At least some people not in Canadian politics thinks she’s got something on the ball.

And Catharine Clark is a total hottie. We should elect her, just so we can say we have the most attractive leader in the world.