Now, before we begin, let’s get the usual stuff out of the way.
[ul][li]Canada is not threatened with invasion. [/li]
OK, right now Canada is in a good solid position, right on the border of the country with the most powerful military in the world. Glad we can provide that security for you.
[li]The US is not threatened with invasion. [/li]
Fine with me. But gee, doesn’t that almost completely defenseless country to the north make a nice inviting target? Sure does. Good thing we’re here to defend you.
[li]Quit busting on Canada. They have a great military tradition, they were at Dieppe and Normandy and everywhere in between.[/li]
True that. But I think I can now safely say that you had a great miltary tradition. Considering that you don’t have anything left to speak of after the gutting begins. According to this article,
[/ul]
As usual, I’m just spitting in the wind here, but it’s amazing how the US gets hammered by Canada on a fairly regular basis and yet now we’re effectively expected to defend them should something happen in order to protect our own country? That’s what it looks like to me, anyway. Canada is just quitting, knowing full well that we’ll be there for them.
Isn’t that the very pinnacle of arrogance? Just a thought.
Actually, I think more Canadians are afraid of your country than anyone else. I suspect any terrorist whose upset with us would be upset over our connection to you and your policies.
And no, I don’t think very many people in this country expect to rely on your country for anything, much less military support.
We simply don’t have the funding to maintain a massive military the way you guys do. And what we do have is stretched to the limit with peacekeeping operations.
You make it sound like we’re getting rid of our army altogether, but that’s not the case. We do have higher priorities, and we have a right to that.
This Canadian quite frankly wants an increase in Canada’s military funding too, precisely so we don’t have to depend on the U.S. for our national security.
Fer cryin’ out loud, our armed forces probably saved hundreds of lives during the ice storm in Quebec and Ontario a few years ago, but we pay them like shit. (The quote I heard in 1996, courtesy of Rick Mercer, was $20000 Canadian per year before taxes.) Hey, did you know Canada sent the armed forces into Gulf War II? Yep, we did. We sent a frigate. ONE FRIGATE. We looked like a five-year-old kid following his older brother to the mall.
And of course, even though our armed forces are barely armed with plastic knives and forks, we still expect them to contribute to U.N. peacekeeping missions. I wonder how much those four soldiers who got bombed in Afghanistan got paid?
I for one am tired of Canada looking like the U.S.'s lickschpittle on the world stage. Let’s get a decent military so that if we want to tell the U.S. to fuck off we can really mean it.
And how is it that you have that luxury? If we weren’t here you’d have to spend on your own defense, buthey, we’re here, so really, don’t bother. I rather like being used.
Secondly, the history of this country is that we ignore the military when not under attack. Currently we’re not under attack, at least not in the traditional sense. Now, I suppose we could dump massive amounts of money on the military, divide the world up into theaters of operations and generally use the old steel fist/slightly worn velvet glove to get our way. Mind you, why bother? The logistics to do that require either a N.Korea mentality or American GDP.
Canadians have made a series of choices to allocate funding away from the military. Since the only hordes looming on our border were American shoppers, the necessity of an army/navy and air force was difficult to argue for. However, the idea that America is somehow picking up the tab is laughable. You would be interested in what happened up here even if we were gone and the ice floes were bobbing outside Buffalo. Your scale and geopolitical involvement necessitates you being everywhere. Don’t complain that the natives might not pick up the tab for your security.
As a serving member of the Canadian Forces (air reserve, full time) I’d love to be able to debate you on this topic airman doors. God how I wish that I could tell you that the Canadian Public hasn’t abandoned it’s military. Some would point out how funding has increased in the military in the last few years and I would say yes, it has, BUT… only to a level that makes the Canadian Public feel better that it’s serving members are no longer on welfare to support themselves and their families. We work with outdated equipment that needed to be replaced years ago, (Sea King anyone?) we have mothballed most of our fighter command in order to upgrade a few of them to the level where they are no longer completely obselete. For overseas deployments the Canadian Forces has NO WAY of transporting its men and materiel by itself. We must contract this responsibility out. (see the events a few years ago on the transport ship that held canadian military equipment ransom awaiting payment.) In short, I can’t argue with alot of what you have to say. And unfortunately Hamish, you are wrong. It is exactly like we are getting rid of our armed forces. They ceased to be an effective fighting force years ago. Do you have any idea how many times in the last year I’ve had newspaper articles forwarded to me by friends stating the military will cease to exist soon? Yes, we the canadian public have a right to place our spending priorities in other areas besides the military. But YOU, the civilian must understand that your military is ineffective for most of the duties you demand it fulfill. Our peacekeepers must trade uniforms and kevlar helmets with the incoming soldiers replacing them because we can’t afford to buy enough to go around. It’s this simple Hamish, you may not like what Airman Doors has to say, I know for a fact that I don’t, but you will be VERY hard pressed to prove him wrong.
One thing I would like to dispute is Airman Doors insistance that the Canadians are relying on them to defend us. I don’t believe that to be correct. We are not relying on the Americans to defend us, we’re just short sighted enough to believe that we don’t need to defend ourselves at all. The end result is the same, we will need you to defend us, but the principle is the important part, right?.. Because as everyone knows, the military is good for two things: 1. snow removal (I wish I were kidding.) and 2. fulfilling peacekeeping commitments with little staff and incomplete and inadequate equipment because it makes our country feel good to say that we’re there. Yup, we’re there. We’re in constant danger and completely unable to defend ourselves if pressed but yup, we’re there.
Wow - who knew that the way to get the US to actually notice Canada was to cut military spending.
Listen bub, the US doesn’t give a flying fig about Canada and really never has - until the problem is yours it’s not your problem. There’s no one in Canada deluding themselves that the US is going to rush to our defense unless the tanks are on your doorstep.
Nah, what bugs me is that our military doesn’t even aspire to “puffed up”. It barely aspires to “anemic”.
Canada needs a military. Leave aside, for the moment, the fact that the military has uses other than killing people. (Ask someone who lived through the ice storm what those might be.) Canada, like every other nation, needs to protect its sovereignty or get stepped on. Remember those Spanish trawlers who decided they could fish wherever they damn well pleased eight years ago? I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that they wouldn’t have tried that if the cod had turned out to be in U.S. territorial waters.
In his mildly assholish way, Airman Doors has a point. Depending on the U.S. for our national security is arrogant. But I disagree with him on the eventual consequences. He seems to give the impression that a smaller Canadian military will result in Canadians bossing around U.S. armed forces and telling them how to defend our country. Puh-leeze. What it will result in is the United States defending Canada any way it damn well wants to. And I don’t want that. I’m living in the United States now, and I don’t want their approach to national security applied in Canada.
Like it or not, if Canada wants a say in its own destiny we need a military presence. And what we’ve got right now ain’t cutting it.
Hey, this Canadian doesn’t expect your country to do anything but shirk its obligations to others, including us.
In the unlikely – well nigh unimaginable event – that a country that you were on friendly terms with launched an unprovoked assault on Canada, I think I’d be rather surprised if your nation fulfilled its NATO obligations and helped out.
On the other hand, we went to Afghanistan with you, to the former Yugoslavia with you guys. After September 11, Canadians flocked to give blood and to help in any other way we could.
And for those same two-and-a-half years, all we’ve gotten is grief from your country. Everything we’ve had to give up for NAFTA (including environmental regualtions like for MMT), and getting you guys to agree to drop softwood lumber tariffs was still like pulling teeth. Then there was the whole mad cow thing, where your government seemed rather eager to put the blame on Canada before the test results were even back. Your ambassador felt the need to issue vague threats about decriminaling marijuana and legalizing gay marriages. And still, our country is ready to bend over backwards for you on issues like North American missile defence.
You want to know what? We aren’t counting on you. we don’t count on you for anything. We long since gave up that.
Of course it does. And had a member of the Canadian military started this thread I would have whole-heartedly supported them. I’m from a military family - both grandfathers served in WWII, father was reg force for 34 years and then went on to command a militia unit for another 5, brother attended and graduated RMC after serving 2 years in a militia unit - I get that Canada needs a military.
That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with this lame ass rant.
I’d be interested in more detail concerning base closures and draw-downs (if any).
Some of this could have a non-trivial affect on US national defense, because North American air defense is completely integrated. I emphasize “could” because it really depends on exactly what is being mothballed/decommissioned/closed.
The Canadian military has been in a squeeze for years. This is really nothing new.
We’re totally comparing apples and oranges here. The US military is massive (1.4 million active-duty troops, according to this site); Canada has a population of 32 million people total. And no, actually, we don’t expect the US to defend us. We do, however, expect the US to leave us alone and leave us our sovereignty to make our own decisions for our own country.
As for depending on the US military for defense as being the pinnacle of arrogance, have you met our former P.M. Chretien? Look up the definition of arrogance, and you’ll see his picture there.
(Buliwyf, why are so many Canadian soldiers on peacekeeping missions? Why do we need to send Canadian soldiers anywhere? Why can’t they just stay home and defend their own country, should the need arise? I’m not asking to be sarcastic - I truly would like to know this.)
Well, THIS American supports our Canadian brethren. We need them to protect our northern border from attack by…by…penguins live at the South Pole, right?..
Why shouldn’t Canada abolish their military? Attacking Canada would net the attacker what? There is no reason to attack a country that most of the planet barely knows is there. Face it, most of the country is a vacant lot. If we annex the 20 miles of Canada nearest the US border, we can have the world’s largest back-yard!
A tradition that starts with Pearson and the Suez Crisis.
In addition to often being the right thing to do, it has the an added practical advantage: Canada will likely go generations without a war on its soil. Peacekeeping represents a legitimate way for our troops to see actual combat.
IMHO, if we increase military spending, the money should go to proper housing and paying those people a decent paycheque. Those are the most critical military issues, right now.
You’re onto us, Hamish. If you ROT-13 the US Constitution, hold it up to the light of a full moon, and dance around it three times, you find out that the Illuminati and the Masons and the Jesuits and Lord Thistlewhig’s Jolly Pranksters decreed that the United States shall do nothing but shirk obligations.
It’s our plan, really. NATO? That’s for our benefit. If you’re attacked, tough luck. When Uruguay attacks, we’re going to let you two wear each other down and then step in and annex the whole mess. The entire history of the United States has been nothing but waiting for the proper time to strike, all the while cackling gleefully in the shadows.
It’s completely true. The fact that the administration in office in the last two and a half years has been the only administration in office in the last two and a half years is meaningless, since, after all, we’re a monolithic entity bent on world domination. Panama? Haiti? Yugoslavia? Even Cuba, over a century ago? All secret operations intended to insert covert operatives who can depose the leaders and declare the Free and Holy Christian States of Global America. Honest.
The Cuba thing’s taking a little longer than we expected, but really, what can you expect? Odds are the operatives are wasting away in margaritaville, thank you very much Jimmy Buffet.
Yes, though, to get back to the main point – America is nothing more than the Bush administration, and every citizen is united in uncritical support.
Hamish, you think I like what the US has done to your country? I don’t. Frankly, I admire a lot about Canada, and I loathe all of the crap that our politicians make you guys go through.
But…
That by no means allows me to write off the fact that your politicians have sold out your people’s security (and by extension, ours) because they know deep down inside that if something happens to you we will HAVE to intervene. It’s as if you have a guard at the house next door and so you dismiss your guard because you know that the other guy will come and save you. That’s completely unethical and just outright wrong. You can’t even maintain the sovereignty of your own borders now, for Christ’s sake. How is that responsible leadership? It’s not, not at all. And if something happens, who will help? We will, the guard at the other gate. Is it any wonder that people call us the World’s Policeman when we are now performing that duty for our own neighbor?
I don’t like being a pawn for another country, and with the token defense you have left, that’s what I’ve become. That’s my bitch with the whole deal. You get the cake, you get to eat it, and you get to use my sword to make sure that you do.
