[b]Alice_in_Wonderland, you can't be serious

The BBQ Pit
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In this thread, Airman Doors pitted to Canadian military budget cuts. Now, the Canadian military has been cash strapped for a while, and it’s a shame because they have such a proud tradition. But this isn’t about that.

This is about Alice_in_Wonderland saying "There’s no one in Canada deluding themselves that the US is going to rush to our defense unless the tanks are on your doorstep.

I couldn’t read through the rest of the posts because I was too riled by this statement. Do Canadians really believe that the US wouldn’t do anything until the tanks were on our borders? Do Americans really believe that?

Frankly, I can’t imagine any scenario where Canada was even threatened that the United States wouldn’t step up and offer support. And if Canada was actually attacked, I don’t believe the US would let the echoes of the explosions fade before it decided yet another country had lost its right to sovereignty.

Even if Canada attacked someone (which is unlikely, I grant you), I think the US would say “It’s Canada. They must have had a reason. Let’s go shoot somebody.”

Other nationalities are welcome to chime in, but I’m interested in what other Americans think. Whether you agree with war or not, can you imagine a scenario where Canada, even the French speaking part, was attacked that we would not immediate lend support and troops?

I’m used to Canadians looking down their nose at us, but for a Canadian to think that the US would ever stand by and watch them be attacked disgusts me.

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WAG to follow…

I would not be too suprised if the US Dept. of Defense has plans for defending Canada (and Mexico for that matter) from attack simply because much of our security is derived from not having hostile neighbors. Remember the US-Canadian border is not fortified; nor is our southern border with Mexico really. It’s really nice to be able to count on not being attacked on those borders. The DOD would probably like to keep it that way.

I’ve not really given this much thought though, so you might want to take my musings with a grain of salt.

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Under any other administration, I would have no doubt at all that we would rush to aid Canada in any sort of military confrontation. Under this administration… I just don’t know. I’m pretty sure we would, because turning our back on our closest (in every sense of the word) ally would be stupid and evil beyond words. If any US president would abandon Canada in a time of need, it’d be this one. But I seriously doubt even George W. would stoop so low.

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I know the common wisdom is that everything George W. Bush does is evil, but I just don’t believe it. The man is not as stupid as his inability to make a speech would suggest. He doesn’t hate the poor and middle class. In fact, I believe he genuinely cares about America and I think we could do a whole lot worse than him.

I also believe he should get a karmic boot up his ass for his knee-jerk conservative views regarding stem-cell research, same-sex marriage and the patriot act. But, even though I can’t support him because of those three things, I refuse to pretend he’s trying to destroy our country out of some innate, evil nature.

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um…back to the op…

I (personally) have always thought of Canada as a loveable yet obnoxious younger brother. I’ve been in Canada a few times, and I like the country and the people are generally nice (not to draw too broad of a brushstroke or anything :rolleyes: ) and I just have seen the little bickering between us on message boards as slightly sibling-rivalry-induced noogies.

You know what happens between brothers/sisters when someone threatens one of them? The other will automatically leap to protect. “That’s MY brother, NO ONE gives noogies to him except ME.”

I don’t think anyone (except those very few weirdos) in the US actually hates Canada, and I think the snide comments I see on bulletin boards are kind of joshing/kidding/teasing. I know I’ve said some things in jest to my sister that, if they didn’t know better, people could see as mean.

So I don’t think Canada should doubt our ability to come through and help them out if they were being threatened.

But why in the hell would Canadians set themselves up for that situation? It just doesn’t make any sense!

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Well, the US can’t do that anyway. What the hell is the whole basis of 50 years of NATO ?

Unless Alice is saying the present US Adminstration won’t necessarily stand by its Treaty obligations . . . which is maybe a point.

But even so, NATO comprieses an awful lot more that the US . . . so there’s no real problem - help under the treaty would come from the UK and Europe.

But who would attack any western country in a way that it couldn’t deal with it by itself - we’re not exactly awash in enemies capable of taking on a western nation State . . .

Wait, maybe those oh-so-aggressive Chinese . . .

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I can’t possibly concieve of a scenario wherein Canada was attacked and/or invaded (even disregarding NATO) where the US would just idly sit back and let it happen. For right or wrong, many Americans actually do consider Canada to be an extension of the United States and I honestly believe that any attack, even on Nunavut, would result in the same amount of force from the US as an attack on Florida would.

With that being said, I also don’t see Canada being so willfully stupid as **Airman ** is trying to make them out to be either. To expect them to keep their military at levels that cuts into their social programs is stupid and ignorant of their own policies. Not all countries in the world choose to spend such massive amounts of money on defense and Canada has little reason to expect to be attacked so why would they want to keep an army they really have no reason to have?

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Well, if the U.S. attacked… :smiley:

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American military power. Especially now, I’m not sure Germany, France, or most of the other NATO countries have the ability to place a division overseas without American support. Some of them ae still too poor, but many have simply cut their military to the bone. Britain could, though.

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They do have a reason to have an army, and that is to defend their own friggin’ borders. I swear it’s like beating my head against a wall here. It is nobody’s responsibility but Canada’s to defend their borders. Treaty obligations require assistance, but if nobody can assist, who’s defending? And if nobody’s defending Canada, well, we have a nice, long northern border with them. So you tell me why we have to jump in if something happens.

And they know that, so it’s all OK. I’ll wear a maple leaf on my uniform, too, if that’s what you want.

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It’s silly to even think about what would happen to US thinking if Canada were to be attacked militarily. The only potential threat they face is *from * the US.

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Correct. And I don’t believe we’ve asked you for help.

Who asked you to? As a matter of fact, I don’t remember Iraq asking you for help either. You went in on the pretense of WMDs, but when they weren’t found, you prided yourselves on having helped the Iraqis. You just so happen to go poke your noses in on other people’s business, voluntarily, against expert advice. If that’s your schtick, fine. But don’t go around like martyrs, once you did. You did it on your own volition.

Either there’s been a serious rupture in our relationship, or I haven’t been seeing straight for most of my life. I don’t remember it being like this before ten years ago. I feel that Americans look down their noses at Canadians. I don’t think you look at us like “your little (bigger btw) brother”. I think you look at us like a mosquito on the other side of the room that you’re too lazy to get up and swat ~ a pest. It’s too bad that we feel this way about each other.

The fact that you’re disgusted at the thought of a Canadian thinking “the US would ever stand by and watch them be attacked”, think how disgusted we feel. And think of what’s gotten us to the point of contemplating this in all seriousness.

I believe the US would “protect” us; I believe it would be in self-interest. One way it would serve you is your appearance on the world stage. Our heroes! G-d bless America! If we were some country only you knew about, and an attack on us wouldn’t put you in danger, I could easily fathom you looking the other way. It’s got nothing to do with responsibility to the countries of the world. It’s got everything to do with appearance, status, money, and self-preservation.

Better the ‘enemy you know’ than the one you don’t. You’re quite safe bordered up with Canada. We certainly are no threat. Imagine a country like Israel taking over, and having the same porportion of IDF (size ratio wise as they have now) on the other side of your border. We wouldn’t be your “little brother” anymore, would we?

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You know, I do occasionally get tired of the little brother shtick. My brother-in-law does it and while I know it’s meant well it comes across as patronizing to the extreme. The country is almost 140 years old. We’ve done the world wars stuff; we’ve help build the UN, GATT, WTO, Commonwealth, NATO etc. We’ve bleed in France, Hong Kong, Korea, Cyprus, and else where. We’re no one’s kid brother.

We’re peers. Two of the oldest democracies on the planet, filled with immigrants from around the world. We’re the newest kind of human society. But we’re no one’s kid brother.

We do at times seem to expect favorable treatment from the US, much as the US expects favorable treatment from us. Normally that happens. However, there is always the sense that America’s business is business and that self interest will trump goodwill. The additional baggage that comes from being involved around the world can help and hinder your perception up here, but there’s little that can be done about that.

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Not everyone is paranoid enough to see a military invasion of Canada as something to worry about.

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When my neighbor’s wall is on fire, it is my business.

Depending on our interests at the time, our neigbor’s wall can be anywhere from Kuwait to South America. And if we’re ready to send soldiers in to Kuwait to defend economic interests, I can’t imagine any President, in the past fifty years, now, or in the forseeable future, doing anything other than moving in massive amounts of soldiers to repel the invasion, and then destroying the country the invading forces came from.

Of course, I live 45 miles south of the Canadian border. It isn’t even difficult for me to see Canada on a clear day (I live on a ridge). Anything that decides to chomp up Canada could easily set its sights a little lower and take the cream off the top of the US. And then grab up Montana.

The main thing for you to learn from this is that everything is self-interest, and that goes twice for geopolitics. Everyone, including Canada, does nothing that doesn’t benefit them. If you want a proof of that, tell me how many Canadian soldiers rushed to Haiti to defend human rights down there.

Heh. Think about that for a while: When we move in to a foreign country to defend it out of UN or NATO obligations, we’re an Imperialist Crusader Defiling and Despoiling the Native Lands. Aside from that, we usually either lose or make the problems worse (Somalia, for example, and the Balkans). You don’t want us to send our armed forces everywhere, remember? Especially where it doesn’t directly concern us, or only concerns us economically (which Doesn’t Count)? Essentially, our Responsibility to the World is usually to get lost. But you apparently want us to make a stand for a country that has no connection to us at all, simply to prove… what? That we aren’t like every other country on the planet? That we are in the business of going to war for no reason at all? I don’t think you want a US that acts that randomly.

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And there goes the world supply of dental floss.

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I agree with your post, Grey. Just a simple point I’d like to make, by giving two examples.

My neighbour banged on my door a few weeks back. Three o’clock in the morning. And when that didn’t wake me up fast enough, he incessantly rang my doorbell a few stairs down while his son banged on my door. Not knocking. Banging. Why?

The city was doing snow removal. My car was on the street (it had snowed so much I couldn’t get it into my parking space). The cops were there and my car was hooked up onto the tow truck. The lights from the cops and tow trucks woke the guy up. He saw my car was being towed. He did everything to help me. That’s what neighbours do.

He didn’t wake up and say, “Dumb bitch! She’s stupid enough to park on the street tonight, KNOWING they would do snow removal, and now I am the one, who has to go wake her up. Why is it I’m always the one saving everyone in this building?”

No, he didn’t. You know why? Cause then he’d be an asshole neighbour.

A few days later, another neighbour came to my door and asked if I had any tomato paste they could buy off me. BUY? Hell no! Hold on a sec, I’ll get some for ya! Though she only asked for one can, I gave her two, to make sure she wasn’t skimping.

I didn’t think to myself, “Oh! I’m responsible enough to do my groceries and get everything I need. But now! That dumb cow downstairs decides she wants to make Sloppy Joes. But I will be the one to supply the tomato paste! Why do I always have to be the one to go around and make sure everyone’s pantries are full!?”

No, I didn’t. You know why? Cause then I’d be an asshole neighbour.

And I sure as shit don’t sit by the window saying, “Look. Three grocery bags in her hand ~ hardly enough. I bet eventually she’s gonna come to ME for some food (though she never has before). I just bought $782 worth of food this month, even though I knew that spending that much would bounce my rent cheque. And I’m sure people know it and are going to want me to give them food. And I’m gonna have to. Because that’s my job in life ~ taking care of other people who are too irresponsible to buy things like tomato paste.”

I’m sure someone living in the same world …er… I mean community, across the ocean …er… I mean street, wouldn’t be so fast to help, nor ask for help. But it’s just a kindred feeling we have for each other, living in the same continent … err… I mean building.

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The only way tanks could get to the border of Canada without going through the US first would be over the polar ice cap. The US is doing everything it can to melt the polar ice cap.

So no worries, Canada. We got your back.

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Glad you agree. Like I said, self-interest. And Canada has less “self-interest” in arming itself to the bone, than the USA does in us arming ourselves to the bone. Why? Cause we don’t piss people off like you do, going around claiming to be the best nation in the world. You stirred the shit; don’t be pissed at us because we’re not buying a blender with a “liquify” option.

What UN or NATO obligations did you fulfill when you invaded Iraq? “Imperalist Crusader Defiling and Despoiling the Native Lands” … Yeah, close enough.

Never stopped you. What counts is when you send in armed forces to a country that needs it and is asking for it.

Well, I’d say when NATO thinks one thing, and you think the other, and go against NATO … yeah, get lost.

No … I don’t believe I’ve ever wanted or expressed a want for the US to make a stand for a country that has no connection to you at all. However, you did. I didn’t want you to prove that you weren’t like every other country on the planet, that you weren’t in the business of going to war for no reason at all. But you did.

And no, I don’t want the US to act randomly. But you do.

So, remind me … What of my “wants” do you think you’re fulfilling?

Your people are sick and going without healthcare. Your children are sharing textbooks in over-populated classrooms. Your masses, including Airman Doors, USAF are unemployed and desperate for a job. Here’s a clue:
Mind your own fucking business and work on your own country instead of bitching about others.

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It was never a question in my mind that the US would be the first (aside from Canadians) to jump to their defense. Just as with Britain. If for no other country in the world, I expect the US to defend at least these two purely because of sentimental reasons. I’ve always thought at least the majority of united states citizens felt the same way. So it was really surprising to me that Alice voiced this sentiment.

But then I realized, I’ve got my head up my ass. (It’s pretty dark in there.) I keep forgetting I live in an evil country. Everybody knows the US only ever acts in it’s own self-interest. The US would never do anything purely to be helpful. Goodness knows, the citizens of the United States don’t give a rat’s ass about anybody but themselves. We don’t actually care about anything other than owning a gun, being fat and lazy, and trampling everybody else.

Thanks for reminding me Alice. I think I’ll send Bush an e-mail and tell him to keep up the good work.