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  #1  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:21 AM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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Oh no! No underpants at work!

First off, I work in the restaurant industry (a cafe). I have a co-worker who wears a short dress everyday to work and no underpants. We know because she is not ashamed to admit this. We also know (she told me) that a few of our customers are also aware of it despite the fact that they haven't been told.

She doesn't even attempt to be discreet knowing she's wearing a short dress with no underpants. She's a giddy person who jumps up and down a lot, sits on the counters (blech!), etc. Also, some of our duties require bending over, crouching, standing on a stepstool reaching over our heads, and whatnot, and I fear when I see her do this, she must be flashing somebody! I've taken to quickly averting my eyes. But what of the unknowing customer who gets an unexpected peep show?

There is nothing in our dress code that specifically requires employees to wear underpants. Any reasonable person would think we wouldn't have to be told. But given the fact that we all think it's freakin' nasty and inappropriate, we feel something needs to be done. Our manager is at a loss as to what to do since it's not in the dress code. It's also a bit uncomfortable to have to directly address this issue. We've considered many tactics, including buying her some damn underpants and hope she takes the blatant hint.

Is anyone aware of any health code that specifically addresses this? What should we do? Help!
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  #2  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:23 AM
Star Was Star Was is offline
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Where is this restaurant? What time is her shift?
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  #3  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:39 AM
LolaBaby LolaBaby is offline
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Yikes!

Have a friend come in and be a "customer". Then they can conveniently "complain". Then wouldn't the manager have to do something about it? That's nasty.

Or ask your local Health Department.

But, I'll bet there's a few guys here that would like to know where you work, now.
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  #4  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:59 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Is she cute?
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Old 04-10-2004, 03:04 AM
gouda gouda is offline
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Pictures, please.
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  #6  
Old 04-10-2004, 03:10 AM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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Sheesh! You guys are impossible!
But just to be fair: No, I'm not gonna give out more info. Yes, she's cute. As for pictures, there are plenty of porn sites to choose from.
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  #7  
Old 04-10-2004, 03:14 AM
Toddly Toddly is offline
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Seriously, the manager either needs to tell her to wear some undies or update the dress code to include them specifally. Isn't that what managers are paid to do in these situations?
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2004, 03:22 AM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaBaby
Have a friend come in and be a "customer". Then they can conveniently "complain". Then wouldn't the manager have to do something about it? That's nasty.
Thought of that. Gee, where can I find a willing guy to come in and get flashed?
This might be the route to take, although I worry that the complaint would get higher up the chain and I really don't want her to suffer that kind of embarassment or get into trouble. It's just that we want her to make Hanes her friend.


Quote:
Or ask your local Health Department.
I can't find any information from the Health Dept. online and I've hesitated calling due to the ick factor. I can only imagine that phone conversation:

::: bbbrrrinnnggg :::
"Health Dept. This is Tom. How can I help you?"
"Uh yeah, do you have any regulation about people having to wear underpants to work?"
"Excuse me?"
"Um, well, I work in a restaurant and one of my female co-workers doesn't wear underpants under her dress."
"Reeealllly??? ::: insert lecherous breathing ::: "Well, where do you work?"
"Do I really have to say?"
"Well, we'd obviously need to send an inspector out."
"But how would confirm this?"
"Of course, we'll have to ask her to lift up her skirt---"
::: Click! :::
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2004, 03:28 AM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddly
Seriously, the manager either needs to tell her to wear some undies or update the dress code to include them specifally. Isn't that what managers are paid to do in these situations?
I agree and we've been urging our manager to do something about it. I can understand her difficulty with it, though. She's a relatively new manager and this is one of those extremely uncomfortable tasks. I have to add though, that this particular employee seems to require an explanation for every directive. I think our manager wants to have all her ducks in a row before she has to explain to her why (the mind boggles) underpants are required and by whom. Eventually, though, she is going to have to do something.

Oh, and our dress code is set by corporate. If that were to change, it would have to come from them. Which means advising corporate that there's a actual real live reason it needs to be there.
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Old 04-10-2004, 03:30 AM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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Though is a great word, though I often overuse it. It seems, though, that overusage makes my post look completely idiotic upon reading it. Though, I assure you, I'm not completely an idiot!

::: sigh ::: It's late.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2004, 03:40 AM
Toddly Toddly is offline
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Cinnamon, while I agree that it is a particularly uncomfortable situation the manager needs to tell her flat out that it is not acceptable. I would think she would get plenty of support from the corporate side on this issue.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2004, 05:58 AM
Snooooopy Snooooopy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon Girl
Oh, and our dress code is set by corporate. If that were to change, it would have to come from them. Which means advising corporate that there's a actual real live reason it needs to be there.
*RING*

*RING*

"Hello, this is the corporate office of the Underpants Cafe chain. How can I help you? ... Do I think that all employees should have to wear underpants? Of course, goddammit -- why do you think we named it the Underpants Cafe?"
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2004, 06:10 AM
Starguard Starguard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaBaby
Yikes!

Have a friend come in and be a "customer". Then they can conveniently "complain". Then wouldn't the manager have to do something about it?
Yea, like make her do a lap dance for him
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Old 04-10-2004, 06:17 AM
Starguard Starguard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddly
Seriously, the manager either needs to tell her to wear some undies or update the dress code to include them specifally. Isn't that what managers are paid to do in these situations?
If that doesn't work, for uniformitys sake the manager could make everyone else take theirs off
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  #15  
Old 04-10-2004, 06:21 AM
gouda gouda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon Girl
Sheesh! You guys are impossible!
But just to be fair: No, I'm not gonna give out more info. Yes, she's cute. As for pictures, there are plenty of porn sites to choose from.
Yeah, but porno is too contrived... this is really for real
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Old 04-10-2004, 06:29 AM
Snooooopy Snooooopy is offline
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Perhaps you should have a friend pose as a customer ... and bring in a camera! A few snapshots directed at the lower half of her body might send the message ... and be worth something on Ebay!
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  #17  
Old 04-10-2004, 08:12 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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How about calling your corporate office anonymously and leaving a tip that "they should update their dress policy to specifically state you must wear underwear." And it might be a good idea to do it with a general release memo rather than just updating the employee handbook.

(But, I don't think its really your problem. She knows, she doesn't care. Your manager knows, and lacks the backbone to address the problem. It isn't your job to manage the staff, and it certainly isn't your job to manage the manager. Although the one time I was in a similar situation (not underpants, incompetence), I told my boss "Its a career limiting move to have YOUR boss fire YOUR employees." Didn't work though and both people were fired within three months.)
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  #18  
Old 04-10-2004, 08:17 AM
ContumeliousBob ContumeliousBob is offline
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I'd tip it!

And I'd come every day!



If I were wealthy that is.

Cause eating out costs the monies.
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  #19  
Old 04-10-2004, 08:30 AM
quilter quilter is offline
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I was a retail manager back when going bra-less was considered un-professional. The dress code stated, "Women shall wear all undergarments." (Which, of course, always caused someone to wonder "at once?" aloud...) Perhaps your new manager could make A Rule, if one doesn't exist?

As ambiguous as the statement is, it got the message across!
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  #20  
Old 04-10-2004, 08:43 AM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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You could also send an anonymous letter to the Health Dept, stating the situation in detail. Much less embarassing.
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  #21  
Old 04-10-2004, 08:49 AM
Zanshin Zanshin is offline
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Wouldn't another issue be skirt length? If she was wearing a longer skirt, the issue of whether she's wearing underwear would be moot (aside from any potential health-department regs). Is skirt length covered in the corp dress code?

And uncomfortableness be damned, the manager needs to sit this woman down and let her know that she's got to start wearing more appropriate clothing for the workplace. Dealing with that kind of situation is what management makes the big(ger) dough for.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-2004, 09:13 AM
don't ask don't ask is offline
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Some treatment methods for Candida albicans recommend avoiding underwear where possible.
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2004, 09:20 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Of course, then she should probably be keeping her infected ass off the counter.

She should probably be keeping her clean and covered ass off the counter. Something about the sitting on the counter part of this story bothers me.
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2004, 09:58 AM
flickster flickster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin
Wouldn't another issue be skirt length? If she was wearing a longer skirt, the issue of whether she's wearing underwear would be moot (aside from any potential health-department regs). Is skirt length covered in the corp dress code?

And uncomfortableness be damned, the manager needs to sit this woman down and let her know that she's got to start wearing more appropriate clothing for the workplace. Dealing with that kind of situation is what management makes the big(ger) dough for.
Maybe this is too obvious, but maybe the manager hasn't done anything because he/she is enjoying the show.
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  #25  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:16 AM
Master Wang-Ka Master Wang-Ka is offline
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"Our manager is at a loss."

Uh-huh.

Your manager is a GUY, right?

(rereads OP)

Oooookay. She's a woman, but wants to do the right thing. Okay, fine. "Boss, just tell her to put some damn pants on or be fired. Give her a choice."

"But..."

"No buts. Think about it. What sane judge would hear her complaint that she was OFFERED A CHOICE between losing her job and wearing underwear? And even if it DID get as far as a lawsuit, can you imagine the newspapers? She'd be mortally embarrassed, and the restaurant would get loads of publicity! We can't lose!"
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:31 AM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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Why doesn't she get a job as a stripper, and likely make a fuckload more money? Are there not strip clubs in the area?
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:33 AM
astro astro is offline
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Huh? The female manager feels very uncomfortable telling a fellow female worker to wear underpants, and feels this needs to approached in a systematic and operationally meticulous fashion, when the time is right, and "all her ducks are in a row".

The minds boggles at the levels of craven stupidity involved in this scenario.

Why don't you (assumedly a female by your board moniker) take commando girl aside and explain to her why wearing underwear with a short shirt is a useful and necessary thing to do when interacting with the public. If she takes the hint your problem is solved. If not then your duck rowing manager can handle it when the moon is in proper alignment for this apparently Sisyphean task.
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:34 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Maybe this poor hard working girl is just trying to put herself through school while supporting her family and saving up to pay for her grandmother's operation. So she needs to make sixty thousand dollars a year in tips on top of her salary.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:40 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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As a special favor for all my fellow dopers, I'm offering opportunities to invest now in my new restaurant chain - Commando Cafe.
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:47 AM
Ponder Stibbons Ponder Stibbons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon Girl
Sheesh! You guys are impossible!
Why yes, yes we are.
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  #31  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:50 AM
nocturnal_tick nocturnal_tick is offline
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Right that's it. I'll tell her. Get her on the boards now and we can all tell her. Just someone tell her.
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  #32  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:53 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Commando Cafe......

Your main competition will be Hooters.

You'll need to make sure that (like Hooters) you keep plenty in reserve for the sexual harrassment lawsuits that are inevitable as twenty year old waitresses discover that "yes, they do get sexually harrassed by customers and managers when they work at a restaurant whose theme is breasts." (Oh, yeah, its a family place and the mascot is an owl, right.)
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  #33  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:58 AM
Ponder Stibbons Ponder Stibbons is offline
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Well, if you really want to go up against Hooters as Dangerosa suggests, might a better name for your new chain be ...

You see it coming, right?

Beavers!

Strictly because of the mascot, of course (wink wink).
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  #34  
Old 04-10-2004, 11:23 AM
Binarydrone Binarydrone is offline
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I just wanted to mention that this thread is currently sequential with one called Going commando.
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  #35  
Old 04-10-2004, 11:32 AM
flickster flickster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponder Stibbons
Well, if you really want to go up against Hooters as Dangerosa suggests, might a better name for your new chain be ...

You see it coming, right?

Beavers!

Strictly because of the mascot, of course (wink wink).
Depending on her style, it could also be Bushwhackers.
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  #36  
Old 04-10-2004, 11:36 AM
nocturnal_tick nocturnal_tick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binarydrone
I just wanted to mention that this thread is currently sequential with one called Going commando.
From that thread I have to ask, does she wear underpants when she's "on"?
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  #37  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:00 PM
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I knew if I were here long enough, I'd find a thread where the phrase "Kiss Mah Grits!" was actually applicable . . .
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  #38  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:03 PM
Doomtrain Doomtrain is offline
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You guys may not have known this, but I actually work for the Health Department (1). We'll be there soon, we just need to see a cite. Preferably a color one. Or in video.

1. I do not actually work for the Health Department.
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  #39  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:11 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Cinnamon- has it occurred to you that this might be really good for business?

I mean, it isn't like I'm that easily manipulated into going back to the same restaurant again and again, but I can definitely see how lesser men might be...
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  #40  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:14 PM
NorwegianBlue NorwegianBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocturnal_tick
From that thread I have to ask, does she wear underpants when she's "on"?
ACKKK!!

I'm the OPs Hubby and I Don't even want to think about Which 5 days to avoid going there.

When I first heard about this my first thought was a natural male reaction..."Shoe mirrors"
But then it dawns on me. ick!
(and this girl thinks I'm creepy!)

Personally I think the Mgr needs to discreetly have a sit-down with her and explain that if she is going to go without then she needs to wear something that will keep her covered. If she is going to insist on not wearing panties, the short skirt needs to be done away with and Shorts/pants should be required.

I don't know any manager that is comfortable discussing personal hygiene with their employees. Sure it's a sensitive matter, but it's a hygenic imperitive that this be addressed, even if it does embarrass someone.
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  #41  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:24 PM
Homebrew Homebrew is offline
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Maybe it's just me; but I couldn't care less one way or the other if people, male or female, are flashing bits of themselves like that. Why should anyone care?
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  #42  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:44 PM
CrazyCatLady CrazyCatLady is offline
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Why should anyone care? Well, among other things, her sitting on the counters is unhygienic, and I certainly don't want my food anywhere near her cooch. I don't want my food near anyone's genitals, to be perfectly honest.

Of course, there's also the fact that she's violating society's implicit rule that we only look at one another's genitals by mutual consent. We're all supposed to have the right to decide whose genitals we see and under what circumstances. By standing on a stool next to me letting it all hang out, she's taking away my ability to make that choice. Having your choices taken away is annoying.
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  #43  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:54 PM
Chairman Pow Chairman Pow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady
Having your choices taken away is annoying.
To be fair, it's also your choice to complain to the manager or to stop patronizing the restaurant. Hell, if that was the worst thing that they did at the coffee shop that my girlfriend goes to, I might actually go with her once in awhile.

Which of course begs the question of why I go at all...

Granted, this person in particular would probably do better working in a college bar.
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  #44  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:59 PM
NorwegianBlue NorwegianBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homebrew
Maybe it's just me; but I couldn't care less one way or the other if people, male or female, are flashing bits of themselves like that. Why should anyone care?
It's not just the exposing that is nasty.

As a homebrewer, you have no doubt heard the phrase..."sanitize, sanitize, sanitize!"

Would you want just anyones genitalia exposed in your brewing area?
I'm pretty sure you don't want THAT kind of Yeast, unless you're considering a lambic.
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  #45  
Old 04-10-2004, 01:02 PM
AncientHumanoid AncientHumanoid is offline
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Sitting on counters

When I worked a summer part time job in food service, we were informed that there is a specific regulation against sitting on or leaning against the counters. This was Los Angeles of the 1970s. The management was very strict about enforcing it, as they had gotten fined out the wazzoo once before.

Check into local Health Code.


As for the rest of it, meh. Outlaw commando and only commandos will go com.... ah, never mind.
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  #46  
Old 04-10-2004, 01:25 PM
Cinnamon Girl Cinnamon Girl is offline
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This thread went in so many directions, I'm at a loss as to where to start.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerosa
(But, I don't think its really your problem. She knows, she doesn't care. Your manager knows, and lacks the backbone to address the problem. It isn't your job to manage the staff, and it certainly isn't your job to manage the manager. Although the one time I was in a similar situation (not underpants, incompetence), I told my boss "Its a career limiting move to have YOUR boss fire YOUR employees." Didn't work though and both people were fired within three months.)
I may be biased because my mgr is also a friend (I worked with her before she became one & supported her move up). To be fair, I don't think backbone is a problem. Shit, nobody's ever accused me of being spineless and I don't envy being in her position. I do agree with all that sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and do whatever unpleasant thing your job requires. Heck, if nothing else, following through is supportive of her other offended employees.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quilter
I was a retail manager back when going bra-less was considered un-professional. The dress code stated, "Women shall wear all undergarments." (Which, of course, always caused someone to wonder "at once?" aloud...) Perhaps your new manager could make A Rule, if one doesn't exist?
Corporate culture being what it is, our managers are on relatively tight leashes and I'm guessing she may be unsure whether she's overstepping her bounds by making rules that corporate has, for whatever reason, not made. As I said, she's new at this and is still learning how to be an effective manager. I've suggested she asks the appropriate questions of her boss and/or mentor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin
Wouldn't another issue be skirt length? If she was wearing a longer skirt, the issue of whether she's wearing underwear would be moot (aside from any potential health-department regs). Is skirt length covered in the corp dress code?
That is definitely an issue and one that's already been brought up. Our dress code states that unreasonably short skirts are not allowed and specifies that more than 4 inches above the knee is the unreasonable. She has pointed out that her dress just barely meets the dress code's definition of reasonable. Still, four inches is not four inches when you're not bending over or have your arms over your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin
Dealing with that kind of situation is what management makes the big(ger) dough for.
They never pay you the kind of money you really deserve to deal with idiotic crap like this. Believe me! Heck, will all the extra hours she puts in, she probably makes less than we do!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerosa
Of course, then she should probably be keeping her infected ass off the counter.

She should probably be keeping her clean and covered ass off the counter. Something about the sitting on the counter part of this story bothers me.
Yeah, you're not alone. She's been told to stay off the counter. Heck, none of us fully clothed people even sit on the counter. There's another girl that follows her around with spray cleaner and sanitizes the counter the moment CommandoGirl jumps off of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flickster
Maybe this is too obvious, but maybe the manager hasn't done anything because he/she is enjoying the show.
Knowing my boss and having seen her reaction when she was informed, I highly, highly doubt it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by astro
Huh? The female manager feels very uncomfortable telling a fellow female worker to wear underpants, and feels this needs to approached in a systematic and operationally meticulous fashion, when the time is right, and "all her ducks are in a row".

The minds boggles at the levels of craven stupidity involved in this scenario.

Why don't you (assumedly a female by your board moniker) take commando girl aside and explain to her why wearing underwear with a short shirt is a useful and necessary thing to do when interacting with the public. If she takes the hint your problem is solved. If not then your duck rowing manager can handle it when the moon is in proper alignment for this apparently Sisyphean task.
Since you can't seem to relate to the uncomfortableness of the situation, I can understand why your mind boggles. Craven stupidity, though, is not exactly how I'd assess the situation. It's more like dumbfounded. I've had the conversation with her about the underpants thing because she chose to tell something I didn't know and really didn't want to know. It seems she's concerned that the customers (older men) who know about her particular choice of unattire know because they witnessed it as a opposed to being told. I told her I thought that was a distinct possibility. As creeped out as she seemed to be, it did nothing to change her ways. So, I don't think that my beating her upside the head with a clue-by-four is going to have any effect whatsoever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nocturnal_tick
From that thread I have to ask, does she wear underpants when she's "on"?
At the risk of grossing you out even further, I'd venture to guess that the answer is "no." Really, I don't want to be able to confirm this though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
Cinnamon- has it occurred to you that this might be really good for business?

I mean, it isn't like I'm that easily manipulated into going back to the same restaurant again and again, but I can definitely see how lesser men might be...
She is very popular with our customers, but I thought it was due to her effervescent personality. Although it wouldn't surprise me if our two regs who know come in more because of it.

CrazedCatLady, I couldn't agree with you more. NorwegianBlue, ewwwww! Do I know you?

Thanks for all the responses. I'll let you know how it pans out.
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  #47  
Old 04-10-2004, 01:41 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon Girl
She is very popular with our customers, but I thought it was due to her effervescent personality. Although it wouldn't surprise me if our two regs who know come in more because of it.
Dinner and a show can be a very effective selling technique.

I sell sunglasses to middle-aged wealthy women, so I have to show a bit of skin every now and again.

Of course, I limit my shows to rolling up my shirtsleeves. Looks odd when a fella wears a midriff-baring shirt or a miniskirt, you see.
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  #48  
Old 04-10-2004, 01:41 PM
Carol the Impaler Carol the Impaler is offline
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Heh. That's nuthin'.

When I was a manager I had to address the following:

1. Employee who never showered and came to work reeking of urine. So much so that the chair she sat in for her 4 hour shift could not be used for the next shift. I got to tell her that she, as a condition of her employment, had to improve her personal hygiene. And that, while I comisserated with the fact that since since had a wooden leg showering was difficult, nonetheless it had to be done.

2. Telling a female employee that she did, in fact, have to wear a bra to work. (I'm female, and she was not un-buxom). Fortunately, I didn't have to have to explain why this was required.

3. Explaining to a gay male subordinate that, although I personally championed his choice to spend his free time dressed in dresses, that he was not, unfortunately, allowed to display pictures of himself thusly attired at the workplace.

4. Lastly, I had to referee a dispute between this same employee and another male employee after their affair fell apart. Normally, personal lives are none of my business, but the fact that the second - er - member of this duo was an otherwise homophobic hyperstraight male, I felt splitting them up was the best course.

Panties-schmanties.
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  #49  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:18 PM
Yookeroo Yookeroo is offline
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I'm thinking this is so not a problem that needs fixing. And as far as the counter-sitting goes, according to Penn & Teller's Bullshit!, the ass is cleaner than the hands and face.
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  #50  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:33 PM
asterion asterion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorwegianBlue
It's not just the exposing that is nasty.

As a homebrewer, you have no doubt heard the phrase..."sanitize, sanitize, sanitize!"

Would you want just anyones genitalia exposed in your brewing area?
I'm pretty sure you don't want THAT kind of Yeast, unless you're considering a lambic.
I agree, but imagine the marketing possibilities!
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