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Old 06-09-2004, 06:15 PM
Leaper Leaper is online now
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One blogger's journey to undo his homosexuality...

Found linked from elsewhere.

I'm really not sure how to feel about this.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:25 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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I hope he succeeds, simply because I'm sick of people who claim all members of group X (whether they're members of X or not) are locked into unbreakable patterns of behaviour.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:39 PM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
I hope he succeeds, simply because I'm sick of people who claim all members of group X (whether they're members of X or not) are locked into unbreakable patterns of behaviour.
He's not talking about changing behavior. He's talking about changing orientation. It's not easy to change behavior, but it's possible. It's not possible to change orientation, unless you're willing to admit that you could "become gay" if you really wanted to. I have no problem with celibate gay men, as long as they're not little holier-than-thou shits about the whole thing.

On the other hand, there has been no credible evidence proffered in favor of any of these god-based therapies actually changing attraction. Not one peer-reviewed study has been done on "reparative therapy" for sexual orientation. The Exodus International poster boy, John Paulk, has himself been caught sitting in a gay bar in Washington, D.C.'s DuPont Circle (the "Fruit Loop"). He claims he needed to use the bathroom. Funny how it took him 20 minutes to find it.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:50 PM
Priam Priam is offline
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I'm not going to get too deep into the feasibility or acceptability of the ex-gay movement, although I pretty much consider them bunk personally.

I'm just going to post and say... oh my God. Lots of self-torture seems to be going on in that blog. It made me ache just to fully read the first two posts and then try to skim down the page. It's rather obvious he believes what he's posting, that he's not just mouthing the words for one reason or another, but I also get the image of him nailing himself to a cross. Serious probability of the self-destruction.

At least that's my general impression.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:51 PM
Brandus Brandus is offline
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I think anyone who has ever claimed to change their sexuality is a fraud. Even to those who claim they they can suddenly be attracted to women with the help of God, I think is a falsity. Has God ever changed any asian into an anglo-saxon? Ever changed any blonde into a brunette? Grown a midget to 6 feet tall?

Although he can, he does not. Furthermore, anyone who thinks going and impregnating females will somehow make up for all the times you had sex with males is wrong. A straight man is not inherently more holy than a gay man.

I don't know the "answer" to homosexuality, or even if there is one, but I do know that pretending to be something your not is NOT the answer, ever!
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:52 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay
It's not possible to change orientation, unless you're willing to admit that you could "become gay" if you really wanted to.
Given how immensely flexible humans can be, and what determined individuals can accomplish, I'm disinclined to dismiss anything short of spontaneous combustion as impossible.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Apos Apos is offline
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I've always been a little bit bothered by the idea that homosexuality is biological, because contrary to most people's assumption, biological doesn't mean immutable. In fact, in some ways, biological predispositions like orientation would probably be EASIER to change than psychological ones.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:13 PM
Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist is offline
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Ug. I started from the very beginning of that and immediately got the feeling that this blog isn't being written by some tortured gay college student, but a middle aged member of some anti-gay group. Christian Coalition......one of Fred Phelp's people perhaps?

Don't really know why I feel this way.....it just seems so....stereotypical, maybe? I looked at his user profile and the music listed was "what the young kids listen to these days".

Just seems very fishy.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:17 PM
Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist is offline
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AND he misspelled Nickleback(Knickleback?). Why would you not know how to spell the name of one of your favorite bands?
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:20 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captaindoesnotlikeyou
......one of Fred Phelp's people perhaps?
As long as the letters G, A and Y appear on computer keyboards, computers will be part of the gay agenda and thus no God-fearing follower of Fred will touch them.
  #11  
Old 06-09-2004, 07:20 PM
Leaper Leaper is online now
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Originally Posted by captaindoesnotlikeyou
AND he misspelled Nickleback(Knickleback?). Why would you not know how to spell the name of one of your favorite bands?
Frankly, my experience has taught me to never be surprised at any aspect of bad English. If it's possible to mangle something, it'll be mangled, no matter how smart the person or how much (s)he knows and likes the subject.

Not that it couldn't be a sign of a fraud, but I don't think it's enough on its own.
  #12  
Old 06-09-2004, 08:28 PM
SolGrundy SolGrundy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
I hope he succeeds, simply because I'm sick of people who claim all members of group X (whether they're members of X or not) are locked into unbreakable patterns of behaviour.
Who's claiming that you can't change behavior? That's absurd. Of course you can change behavior. Smokers can quit smoking. Alcoholics can quit drinking. Straight people can have sex with people of the same sex. Gay people can have sex with people of the opposite sex. Both can live lives of celibacy. Homosexual behavior is not the same thing as homosexuality.

Your comment shows why this website can be considered harmful. People take the writings of a single troubled, confused, dysfunctional individual and try to extend that to all members of group X (in this case, the Dreaded Homos). Even if this guy (assuming it's a real guy) does somehow manage to come out of all this with something approaching a successful life, it proves absolutely nothing.

He's got a lot of shit to deal with, and it sounds to me like his being gay is the least of it. There are plenty of us who had perfectly healthy upbringings free of abuse or molestation, with supportive parents and siblings, healthy friendships with both men and women, and a desire to find the right person, fall in love, and live a happy life together. I would even be rooting for the guy, if he weren't such a sanctimonious prick. He shouldn't blame his failures in life on his being gay, since there are plenty of us who are successful in spite of, or even I guess because of it. And I object to getting preached at by a dude who gets off on bathhouses as much as this guy does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Given how immensely flexible humans can be, and what determined individuals can accomplish, I'm disinclined to dismiss anything short of spontaneous combustion as impossible.
For all I know, you may be right. As I've said before, I don't know whether homosexuality is biological, sociological, psychological, or a combination of that plus cosmic rays and sunspots. But I don't much care, because it's irrelevant. I spent over a decade trying to deny, redirect, examine, refocus, exhaust, and surpress my homosexual behavior, and I'm still homosexual. One could say that I just didn't try hard enough. And I could say to that one, "Go fuck yourself. Why should I fight it instead of just accepting it?"

I tried to not be gay for over 10 years, and it didn't work. Now, fair's fair. You've got to test out your spontaneous combustion theory. Be sure to put up a blog to let us know how you do. I'm rooting for you, big guy.
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:52 PM
Hamish Hamish is offline
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Ugh. Another victim of the predatory religious right. "I cried myself to sleep" -- and for what. So a few pieces of shit can feel they've done right by their deity.

He thinks he's stuck at an earlier stage of development? How can it be called maturity, this squelching of the soul to satisfy an imagined father-figure who rewards and punishes.

Everyone who's instilled this ugliness in this poor human being is a monster. Eventually he'll figure out what all ex-gays find out, and that's that he's wasted years of his life trying to undo himself.
  #14  
Old 06-09-2004, 08:52 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolGrundy
Your comment shows why this website can be considered harmful.
Your response shows you invest too much meaning in a single misused word. On reflection, I shouldn't have said "behaviour" but some more generic word encompassing orientation, personality, beliefs, etc. In any case, whether the guy is gay or not is irrelevant. I support his right to define and change himself any way he wishes far more than any alleged responsibility to any group. If he's says he gay and can change, more power to him. If he said he's Republican and can change, more power to him. If he said he's a left-handed daisy-collector and can change, then fuck all the gay Republical left-handed daisy collectors who say he can't. Fuck 'em all sideways with corkscrews. I'm for self-determination.
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:03 PM
Hamish Hamish is offline
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
I hope he succeeds, simply because I'm sick of people who claim all members of group X (whether they're members of X or not) are locked into unbreakable patterns of behaviour.
You know what I'm sick of?

I'm sick of people who've never met me psycoanalysing me. I'm sick of people with no formal training in psychology pretending to know the depths and reality of my emotions. I'm sick of the arrogance that goes along with the argument that we can change, over our protestations to the contrary. It's a dismissal, a patronizing pat on the head, a refusal to accept that we know more about ourselves than you could.

How do you know? You're on the wrong side of my skull to know what goes on inside me. You can't claim to know my reality better than I know it myself. You're applying a personal maxim to our lives with the subtelty of a sledgehammer. Our testimony -- the witnessing of our souls -- means nothing, because it contradicts your view of the world.

"I hope he succeeds," you say. I've known a few people who've walked his path, and all that's down it is more suffering, more agony -- maybe a suicide attempt or two. Knowing that, do you still want him to walk that path?
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jayjay
The Exodus International poster boy, John Paulk, has himself been caught sitting in a gay bar in Washington, D.C.'s DuPont Circle (the "Fruit Loop"). He claims he needed to use the bathroom. Funny how it took him 20 minutes to find it.
And another 20 minutes to find his way out of it. Or longer, if he was really lucky.
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:17 PM
matt_mcl matt_mcl is offline
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He claims he needed to use the bathroom.
"...and nobody thought to ask him for what." - Kate Clinton
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:26 PM
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"He claims he needed to use the bathroom."

Maybe all the other bathrooms were closed.
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:41 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish
You know what I'm sick of?

I'm sick of people who've never met me psycoanalysing me....
Hey, I don't know or care who the fuck you are, Jack. You must need a new map and compass if you could miss my point by that much. You're free, as an individual, to do whatever the fuck you please. Blog-boy has the same individual initiative.

Quote:
"I hope he succeeds," you say.
I say, indeed.

Quote:
I've known a few people who've walked his path, and all that's down it is more suffering, more agony -- maybe a suicide attempt or two.
A "few" doesn't make an absolute. You're unqualified to make absolute statements, and you're incorrectly accusing me of making them. How ironic.

Quote:
Knowing that, do you still want him to walk that path?
I said I wanted him to succeed, not fail.
  #20  
Old 06-09-2004, 10:19 PM
astro astro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Your response shows you invest too much meaning in a single misused word. On reflection, I shouldn't have said "behaviour" but some more generic word encompassing orientation, personality, beliefs, etc. In any case, whether the guy is gay or not is irrelevant. I support his right to define and change himself any way he wishes far more than any alleged responsibility to any group. If he's says he gay and can change, more power to him. If he said he's Republican and can change, more power to him. If he said he's a left-handed daisy-collector and can change, then fuck all the gay Republical left-handed daisy collectors who say he can't. Fuck 'em all sideways with corkscrews. I'm for self-determination.
I going to take a wild guess that you are heterosexual. So am I. Your faith in the human power to change fundamental brain wiring is awe inspiring.

Let me ask you Bryan, do you believe that if you thought it was the right, proper and moral thing to do, that you could re-orient your innate sexual pre-disposition to be sexually attracted to men? Could there ever be a day where you would long to have your face nestled against a big, hairy, muscular chest, and have big, brawny man arms cuddling you while you smelled his aftershave, and felt his five o'clock shadow rasping against your face while he tickled your chest with little butterfly kisses and a caressed your butt? That you would pray that he asked you to marry him and be his man?

If there any real world chance that there exists a combination of prayer and willpower that would bring you to the point that man love would be the best love for you?

While I applaud your singing "Climb Every Mountain" in the context of personal and behavioral decision making, the chances of a gay man flipping around to be "not gay" is about the same as you cuddling with the Brawny paper towel guy in the above scenario.
  #21  
Old 06-09-2004, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Given how immensely flexible humans can be, and what determined individuals can accomplish, I'm disinclined to dismiss anything short of spontaneous combustion as impossible.
And what an excellent opportunity for a Word From the Master
  #22  
Old 06-09-2004, 11:15 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Originally Posted by astro
I going to take a wild guess that you are heterosexual. So am I. Your faith in the human power to change fundamental brain wiring is awe inspiring.

Let me ask you Bryan, do you believe that if you thought it was the right, proper and moral thing to do, that you could re-orient your innate sexual pre-disposition to be sexually attracted to men? Could there ever be a day where you would long to have your face nestled against a big, hairy, muscular chest, and have big, brawny man arms cuddling you while you smelled his aftershave, and felt his five o'clock shadow rasping against your face while he tickled your chest with little butterfly kisses and a caressed your butt? That you would pray that he asked you to marry him and be his man?
Stop, you're turning me on.

Just kidding. Whether or not I would ever make the attempt (let alone succeed at it) is abso-fuckin-lutely irrelevant. Whether any or all of Hamish's friends offed themselves in their own attempts is irrelevant. If throughout history, fifty million people had tried and failed to change their orientations, this would also have zero relevance. This particular guy who is writing the blog is hinting that he wants to try, and even though empirical evidence suggests the odds are hugely against him, I'd like to see him succeed simply because I respect what human determination can do. Heck, I'd like to see Christopher Reeve walk again, too.

Quote:
If there any real world chance that there exists a combination of prayer and willpower that would bring you to the point that man love would be the best love for you?
Heck, is there a real-world chance a ten year-old could write a symphony? The odds are indeed long, as evidenced by the shortage of Mozarts, but we did have one. Maybe the blogger can succeed at his quest.

Quote:
While I applaud your singing "Climb Every Mountain" in the context of personal and behavioral decision making, the chances of a gay man flipping around to be "not gay" is about the same as you cuddling with the Brawny paper towel guy in the above scenario.
So you admit the odds aren't zero? Well, heck, that's good enough for me. Go, blogger, go!

Quote:
And what an excellent opportunity for a Word From the Master
Cecil concluded that SHC was nonsense, and I take his word for it. On matter of human will, though, I'm not inclined to speak in absolutes.

By the way, yours is a pretty ridiculous ploy. Did you think I was some kind of homophobe who would be grossed out by the idea of getting cuddly with Brawny? Ah, you silly silly goof. If the blogger was straight and wanted to make himself gay, I'd still cheer him on, just to be against all the people who'd say it was impossible.
  #23  
Old 06-09-2004, 11:23 PM
astro astro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Stop, you're turning me on.



By the way, yours is a pretty ridiculous ploy. Did you think I was some kind of homophobe who would be grossed out by the idea of getting cuddly with Brawny? Ah, you silly silly goof. If the blogger was straight and wanted to make himself gay, I'd still cheer him on, just to be against all the people who'd say it was impossible.
Come here and get your kiss you irrepressible cheerleading boy! Stop struggling, it only makes me want you more!
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Old 06-09-2004, 11:24 PM
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While Mozart was near the pinnacle of human genius and potential, and the epitome of Classical European Civilization; I fail to see how his achievements are comparable to one man's quest to like vaginas.
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Old 06-09-2004, 11:24 PM
spectrum spectrum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
I hope he succeeds, simply because I'm sick of people who claim all members of group X (whether they're members of X or not) are locked into unbreakable patterns of behaviour.
Sexuality is not a "pattern of behavior," it is a core, unchangeable trait like gender or eye color.
  #26  
Old 06-09-2004, 11:39 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Originally Posted by Brandus
While Mozart was near the pinnacle of human genius and potential, and the epitome of Classical European Civilization; I fail to see how his achievements are comparable to one man's quest to like vaginas.
Their only similarity is how incredibly unlikely each is. Mozart pulled it off, why can't the blogger?


Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrum
Sexuality is not a "pattern of behavior," it is a core, unchangeable trait like gender or eye color.
I've already addressed my incorrect use of the word "behaviour", and I see no reason to equate sexuality with something anatomically permanent as gender or eye colour, or at least not until a lot more research into brain chemistry and structure is completed.

Heck, I'll stipulate the odds of the blogger succeeding are no more than one in fifty billion, but as long as it costs me nothing to cheer him on, why shouldn't I?

Go, Bloggy! Chase them wimmin!
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Old 06-09-2004, 11:41 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Originally Posted by astro
Come here and get your kiss you irrepressible cheerleading boy! Stop struggling, it only makes me want you more!
You'll have to buy me dinner first. And no damn McDonald's, either.
  #28  
Old 06-09-2004, 11:41 PM
matt_mcl matt_mcl is offline
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I guess for the same reason you shouldn't cheer on an eighteen-year-old girl who's trying to weigh ninety pounds.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:09 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Originally Posted by matt_mcl
I guess for the same reason you shouldn't cheer on an eighteen-year-old girl who's trying to weigh ninety pounds.
Such girls do exist, though. Some are gymnasts and some are midgets. If you were suggesting girls in the self-destructive grip of anorexia, though, I don't quite see the analogy between them and the blogger, since what the blogger is attempting won't systematically destroy his physical health.

It might destroy his psychological health, but I'm hoping it won't. Call me an optimist.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:17 AM
spectrum spectrum is offline
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It will. Ask the APA or any REPUTABLE authority -- what this poor kid is doing is tragic and self-loathing, self-destructive and will come to no good end. He needs psychological treatment to help come to terms with who he is, and the religious leaders who push this shit need to be shot.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:31 AM
Jimmy Chitwood Jimmy Chitwood is offline
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Ugh, that blog makes me feel really sad. I don't know, just a kind of heaviness or something. Some book, and moreso, most probably, the people on TV and in magazines, etc. have convinced this guy that he's not himself. Damn. What did God do for him that justifies this in response? (Don't answer that). I think I'll go find some squirrels to watch or something.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:45 AM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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Originally Posted by Hamish
Ugh. Another victim of the predatory religious right. "I cried myself to sleep" -- and for what. So a few pieces of shit can feel they've done right by their deity.
You know, someone, somewhere, must have come up with the idea that homosexuality was wrong, completely independent of anyone else. That belief has survived for all time. Isn't it possible that this guy came to that conclusion completely independent of anyone else? Or do you really think that the vast majority of people in the world are being gulled into believing that it's wrong because the Pope says so? If so, you're not giving people any credit for even the teensiest bit of intelligence.

I've always wondered what the answer to that question is. I guess I'll find out now. For my part, what you do in your bedroom is your own business, who you love is your own business, and you have my support for equality for those reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that I have always found homosexuality just a bit oogy, and that certainly didn't come from anyone else, least of all the "Religious Right".
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:54 AM
Jimmy Chitwood Jimmy Chitwood is offline
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I don't know, Airman. You think the kid would have independently concluded that he himself was an abomination, unfit to serve the Lord because of the gender of the people to whom he is naturally attracted? I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that somebody else has had a hand in sculpting this guy into the self-loathing wretch that he is. I mean, would you feel oogy about yourself if you were gay?
  #34  
Old 06-10-2004, 01:03 AM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is offline
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Well, I don't know. I was really just throwing that out for discussion, because I refuse to believe that so many people become anti-homosexual simply because someone tells them that it's bad. Take murder for example. Nobody needed to tell you that killing somone was bad, right? You just knew. Why is there such a perceived contrast in the case of homosexuality? That shows such a limited capacity for thinking that it simply doesn't make sense.

In other words, is there something other than learned behaviors that makes people think that homosexuality is bad? If not, I'm afraid that I'm about to lose serious faith in humanity.
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Old 06-10-2004, 01:21 AM
Miller Miller is offline
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Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Well, I don't know. I was really just throwing that out for discussion, because I refuse to believe that so many people become anti-homosexual simply because someone tells them that it's bad. Take murder for example. Nobody needed to tell you that killing somone was bad, right? You just knew. Why is there such a perceived contrast in the case of homosexuality? That shows such a limited capacity for thinking that it simply doesn't make sense.
I disagree that people "naturally" know that murder is bad. If that were the case, why would it need to be included in (for example) the Ten Commandments? The fact that it needs to be spelled out implies that respect for human life needs to be taught, and is not in any way ingrained in the human psyche. I mean, there's no commandment against poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick, because that pretty much goes without saying. Not poking each other in the eye seems to be much less intuitive.
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Old 06-10-2004, 01:22 AM
matt_mcl matt_mcl is offline
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Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
but that doesn't change the fact that I have always found homosexuality just a bit oogy....
How are we defining 'oogy'? Like, personally distasteful? That I can see. I find mushrooms oogy, too, and nobody made me develop that belief.

However, if I loved mushrooms, and felt intense self-loathing as a result of that... while at the same time much of the culture around me was telling me in myriad ways subtle and gross that mycophagy is disgusting and wrong... it would be a bit of a strain to say I came to hate myself based on some kind of innate distaste for something I loved.
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Old 06-10-2004, 01:24 AM
astro astro is offline
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Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
You know, someone, somewhere, must have come up with the idea that homosexuality was wrong, completely independent of anyone else. That belief has survived for all time. Isn't it possible that this guy came to that conclusion completely independent of anyone else? Or do you really think that the vast majority of people in the world are being gulled into believing that it's wrong because the Pope says so? If so, you're not giving people any credit for even the teensiest bit of intelligence.

I've always wondered what the answer to that question is. I guess I'll find out now. For my part, what you do in your bedroom is your own business, who you love is your own business, and you have my support for equality for those reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that I have always found homosexuality just a bit oogy, and that certainly didn't come from anyone else, least of all the "Religious Right".
1: I think a few thousand years of Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition hardly qualiifes as "all time", expecially given the high likelihood that a lot of the priestly heavy lifting over the centuries in the western church has been done by (mostly) celibate gays. The fear and hatred of homosexuals in modernity is quite narrowly focused within this JCI range. The majority of other cultures and belief systems on earth have quite different takes on the issue of the relative morality of homosexual behavior.

2: I can't think of a single social more that anyone in a civilized society has come up with "independent of anyone else". The notion is logcally absurd in and of itself. "Ideas" re mores and the the social appropriateness of specific actions are a result of social interactions with other people and cannot by their nature be "independent".
  #38  
Old 06-10-2004, 01:59 AM
Jimmy Chitwood Jimmy Chitwood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
Well, I don't know. I was really just throwing that out for discussion, because I refuse to believe that so many people become anti-homosexual simply because someone tells them that it's bad. Take murder for example. Nobody needed to tell you that killing somone was bad, right? You just knew. Why is there such a perceived contrast in the case of homosexuality? That shows such a limited capacity for thinking that it simply doesn't make sense.

In other words, is there something other than learned behaviors that makes people think that homosexuality is bad? If not, I'm afraid that I'm about to lose serious faith in humanity.
Well, here's the difference as I see it, notwithstanding the fact that I think murder is kind of a lousy comparison- I get your point anyway. To me, homosexuality isn't something that strikes an innate moral chord in the sense that it's something that nobody else should do; rather, it makes me personally uncomfortable. I don't want to pork another guy, but the act itself, in a general sense, seems OK. The discomfort comes from putting myself into the equation. All other things being equal, it doesn't matter if two men are having sex somewhere, despite the fact that watching might make me a little uncomfortable.

Now, murder or stealing somebody's car seems like an immoral thing to do no matter if I envision myself watching or committing the crime or not. All other things being equal, I do care that somebody is getting their car stolen.

Obviously, a gay man's natural state being, well, gay, it seems pretty likely that they'd be even more OK with homosexuality than I am. They just wouldn't have that natural aversion- the mushroom aversion, so to speak- making them uncomfortable. (Possibly, and maybe someone else could clear this up, possibly a gay man could have that mushroom aversion to the idea of having sex with a woman). Absent of that aversion, doesn't it seem very unlikely that if this guy was born on an island somewhere, he would develop this same hatred of his own natural inclinations? Where could it come from, other than external pressures? I can't imagine, and maybe that's the difference. Maybe you're right about the last bit of your post, and you just have a faith in humanity's goodness that I don't share.
  #39  
Old 06-10-2004, 02:20 AM
Liberal Liberal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjay
He's not talking about changing behavior. He's talking about changing orientation. It's not easy to change behavior, but it's possible. It's not possible to change orientation, unless you're willing to admit that you could "become gay" if you really wanted to.
I agree completely with that, and cannot for the life of me understand why it is not patently obvious. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, it is sufficient to establish whether a man is or is not reasonable by asking him that question. If his answer is, "No, I couldn't become gay but they could become straight," then he is an idiot.
  #40  
Old 06-10-2004, 02:34 AM
SolGrundy SolGrundy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF
You know, someone, somewhere, must have come up with the idea that homosexuality was wrong, completely independent of anyone else. That belief has survived for all time. Isn't it possible that this guy came to that conclusion completely independent of anyone else?
[...]
I've always wondered what the answer to that question is. I guess I'll find out now. For my part, what you do in your bedroom is your own business, who you love is your own business, and you have my support for equality for those reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that I have always found homosexuality just a bit oogy, and that certainly didn't come from anyone else, least of all the "Religious Right".
And I'd respectfully say that you're mistaken. Your finding homosexuality "oogy" did come from someone else, or more accurately, a lot of someone elses, over a very long time. One person didn't come up with the idea that homosexuality was not such a great idea, any more than one person came up with the idea that fire is probably a useful thing to have around.

It's not that difficult a concept. Homosexuality makes absolutely no sense, biologically speaking. Two people of the same sex can't produce offspring, so if they get together and go at it, it's bad for the evolution of the species. That's the kind of idea that sticks with people, so over time, we developed rules against it. In that sense, yes, it is the same mechanism that convinced us that murder isn't a good thing to be doing.

You've got to understand that what makes it "oogy" for you, but pretty appealing for me, is something more fundamental than anybody's got a handle on yet. I'm highly skeptical it's just biological, to be honest; I think it's more likely one of those super-complicated butterfly effect chaos theory combinations of biology, sociology, psychology, and environment. But whatever the cause, the wiring somewhere is fundamentally different. As much as I appreciate how impossibly hot Beyonce Knowles is, if I saw a nude picture of her, you wouldn't see a rise out of Grundy Jr. But, as dumb as it sounds, simply reading astro's ridiculous little Brawny guy passage above did manage to get a little "huh? what's going on? is it time?" out of him. Weird, huh? Ah well, I'm stuck with it.

But even though we don't know what causes the "oogy," it's plenty apparent what caused the idea that it's "wrong." That's society. It's not just one person, it's not even as simple as the "religious right." It's a huge, complicated, long-running network. It's the exact same society that I grew up in, the same society that taught me to think it was wrong even after I stopped thinking it was gross. And the idea that it's wrong is a hold-over from the basic fact that it's rare (which is selected against) and it does nothing to make more people.

What I'm hoping for is that society will grow to realize that we've got a good supply of people going as it is, and now we can start thinking that what's good for the individual can be as valid as what's good for the species. Your "who you love is your own business" idea will become more commonplace, and it will stop being considered "wrong" to a majority of the people, and will go back to just being "oogy."
  #41  
Old 06-10-2004, 03:01 AM
SolGrundy SolGrundy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Your response shows you invest too much meaning in a single misused word. On reflection, I shouldn't have said "behaviour" but some more generic word encompassing orientation, personality, beliefs, etc. In any case, whether the guy is gay or not is irrelevant. I support his right to define and change himself any way he wishes far more than any alleged responsibility to any group. If he's says he gay and can change, more power to him. If he said he's Republican and can change, more power to him. If he said he's a left-handed daisy-collector and can change, then fuck all the gay Republical left-handed daisy collectors who say he can't. Fuck 'em all sideways with corkscrews. I'm for self-determination.
And I agree with that sentiment. But that sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with that webpage. That page isn't about self-determination. It's about condemnation, blame, projection, and self-pity.

The dude doesn't say, "I'm promiscuous and have a series of unsafe and empty sexual encounters that leave me deeply spiritually unsatisfied. I want to change that." He says, "Homosexuals are promiscuous and have unsafe and empty sexual encounters, leaving them deeply spirtually unsatisfied. I am a homosexual. Therefore, I want to overcome my homosexuality."

If he's a slut and he's not happy about it, go for it and change it, I say. If he's a homosexual and he's not happy about it, then try to change that too. From my experience, I'm highly skeptical he'll have any measure of success at all, but hey, that's not my business.

But when he refuses to take any responsibility for his own behavior, but instead goes and tells the world that it's all because of a single personal trait -- a trait that I happen to share, and which is the only thing I share with this asshole -- that's sure as hell my business. I'm going to protest that, and I'm going to protest anyone who "cheers him on." That's not my being defensive, and that's not my investing too much meaning in a word.

Your point, in brief, as I understand it: the gay "community" has no more right to tell this guy he shouldn't deny his homosexuality, than the "religious right" has to tell him his homosexuality is wrong and must be changed or supressed. That, I can agree with. But that's not what was said.
  #42  
Old 06-10-2004, 05:39 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is online now
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I think it probably is possible to permanently change someone's sexuality (orientation and behaviour), it may not be possible without causing irreparable psychological damage in the vast majority of cases, even if actual torture wasn't used, but I think it probably could be done somehow. However I can't see any good reason at all why it should be done.

So I suppose I'd have to say, to those asking if I could be turned gay, that yes, I think it could be done; I don't particularly want this to happen and I'm not sure what sort of mental state I'd be in afterward, but I think humans are sufficiently malleable to make it not utterly impossible in every single case.
  #43  
Old 06-10-2004, 06:29 AM
tagos tagos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandus
I think anyone who has ever claimed to change their sexuality is a fraud. Even to those who claim they they can suddenly be attracted to women with the help of God, I think is a falsity. Has God ever changed any asian into an anglo-saxon? Ever changed any blonde into a brunette? Grown a midget to 6 feet tall?

Although he can, he does not. Furthermore, anyone who thinks going and impregnating females will somehow make up for all the times you had sex with males is wrong. A straight man is not inherently more holy than a gay man.

I don't know the "answer" to homosexuality, or even if there is one, but I do know that pretending to be something your not is NOT the answer, ever!
I suspect they probably have - with faith-based 'therapies' the line between therapy and brain-washing is probably jumped over and kicked to death.
  #44  
Old 06-10-2004, 06:56 AM
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That blogger needs therapy to help him accept his gayness, not to change it. He also needs someone to teach him how to spell "waver" properly.

Can homosexuality be cured? Yes, but only in the sense that my brown hair can be "cured" by red hair dye.

You say you're gay? Accept that and get past it. Nothing wrong with it at all.
  #45  
Old 06-10-2004, 08:42 AM
gobear gobear is offline
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I see no reason to be angry with each other in this thread--Bryan Ekers and Mangetout are not antigay, they're just big fams of willpower. I think they miss the point, but more on that in a sec. Airman Doors is a sweetheart and a genuinely good guy, and he can't help the "ooginess" toward homosexuality that his environment planted in him, but he does his level best to transcend it, so you gotta love the guy for that.

As to the blogger--what a sad guy he is. See, what the "go, blogger" crowd do not seem to grasp is that this is not an exercise in the mastery of the will, but of intense, deep self-loathing. He's isolated from other people, he hates his feelings toward men, and this has led him to become one very unhappy person. He's trying to appease an angry God by suppressing his natural desires to love and be loved--what's praiseworthy in that?

I can see that this blogger is reading these comments, so I want to tell him that even if he became hetero (a mighty big if), that will never be enough to gain acceptance from others. If he looks for validation externally, from God, from Christians, he will never find it because he will never be good enough, ever, by their standards that demand inhuman, unnatural perfection. I havent got a lot of use for a value system that values hate over compassion, intolerance and judgment over unconditional love.

He has to learn that, hetero or homo, he's worthy of love, worth caring for, and that he is under no obligation to please others at the expense of his own sense of self. Eating pussy isn't going to cure his deeper problems, specifically that he doesn't value himself as a worthwhile person. When I read comments like, "The risk I'm talking about is with people. I rarely talk to others about my personal life. I'm just afraid to," I feel very sad for the guy because he doesn't seem to have anyone in his life who gives him unconditional love and support.
  #46  
Old 06-10-2004, 09:17 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is online now
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Excellent post gobear; I heartily agree; this guy's problem isn't his sexuality, but his conviction that his sexuality is A Very Bad Thing and A Big Problem.

I would like to clarify though, that I wasn't really talking about willpower above, more like something along the lines of mental reprogramming at a very deep level; I just have an inkling that it is not quite impossible in all cases (although as I said, I think in most cases, it could cause terrible damage in other ways). I don't think willpower would be very effective at all.

You're right; this person needs someone to accept him, but part of the problem is also that, just like poison, one person explicitly despising him for his homosexuality can swamp the effect of hundreds of others who accept.
  #47  
Old 06-10-2004, 09:26 AM
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Hey Blog guy Ben!

If you're reading this you might want to join the Straight Dope board. We're one of the largest, most sophisticated and powerful general Q&A boards on the planet, it's free (for 30 days), and even if you don't get the specific affirmation you're seeking, it may help you to gain a better grasp of what is, and is not, behaviorally and philosophically achievable in your quest to change your sexual orientation.

Out gay dopers may not be the prettiest, or the most fabulous, but they're fairly compassionate and (mostly) very smart.

Straight Dope Web Site

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  #48  
Old 06-10-2004, 09:32 AM
gobear gobear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro

Out gay dopers may not be the prettiest, or the most fabulous . . .
<Gives Astro the Look>

I'm feeling a pout coming on. <looks in mirror> Still the prettiest!
  #49  
Old 06-10-2004, 09:47 AM
tdn tdn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangetout
I would like to clarify though, that I wasn't really talking about willpower above, more like something along the lines of mental reprogramming at a very deep level; I just have an inkling that it is not quite impossible in all cases (although as I said, I think in most cases, it could cause terrible damage in other ways). I don't think willpower would be very effective at all.
Well said, although I wouldn't draw such a defined line between willpower and "mental reprogramming at a very deep level." Same thing, just at a different point along the continuum.

Is it possible to change one's orientation through sheer force of will? Sure. To compare it to changing one's height is a bad analogy. Height is in the genes. Gayness, as far as anyone has determined so far (and the jury is still out), is entirely in the brain. If it's in the brain, it can be changed. The question is how much work it would take to affect such a change, and how much damage would be done along the way. But yeah, it's possible.

Doesn't make it a good idea, though.
  #50  
Old 06-10-2004, 10:09 AM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobear
. He's trying to appease an angry God by suppressing his natural desires to love and be loved . . . If he looks for validation externally, from God, from Christians, he will never find it because he will never be good enough, ever, by their standards that demand inhuman, unnatural perfection.
As would be expected. I disagree with this. My standard "All Things Gay And Fabulous" witnessing follows.

He's trying to appease, not G-d, but his own guilt and angry church. He mentions his relationship with G-d needs work. I agree with him on this. If you think G-d hates gays, you really haven't had personal experience of Him. He should put down the Bible, and the various 'therapy' books and ask the Lord directly, without any intermediary. But, I fear his guilt and shame would keep him from hearing the answer 'You are as I made you. When any of my children turn to one another in love, it is a beautiful and holy thing. Be unashamed my child. Go forth and find a man with whom you may join not simply your bodies, but your spirits. And know that I love you.'
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