Sexual orientation: is it ever a choice?

Great Debates
1

This is a spinoff of the thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=43610&pagenumber=1, which although resembling a train wreck, has occasionally raised interesting points.

I have long heard the “gays choose to be gay” arguement as a tool of the religious right. There is an ex-gay movement (generally considered to be a failure in terms of their success rate- they don’t change orientation as much as make those who undergo so-called conversion therapy repress their gay impulses.) centered around the idea that gays can change.

I didn’t choose to be a lesbian. I tend to get extremely upset whenever someone suggests that I did. It’s very much touchy ground within the LGBT community. That having been said, however, I have occasionally met people who say that they have chosen to be gay. I don’t mean ex-gays- I mean people who are with a same sex partner, don’t have any issues with themselves, and say that they made a conscious choice.

Although I have only met a few of said people, this is what I’ve known them to have in common:

  1. They had extremely bad experiences with the opposite sex.
  2. They are middle-aged or older. (I’ve yet to meet someone under the age of 25 who says that they made a choice.)
  3. They deny ever being bisexual- they have a “that was then, this is now” approach to their sexuality.

And for that matter, is there a point in time where you can start to define someone’s sexual orientation? I dated boys in middle school and the beginning of high school, but I certainly don’t feel that having done so makes me bisexual. Would this still apply if I dated boys until… say, I was 35, and then announced/realized that I’m a lesbian?

So, dopers, do you think that there is any context wherein a heterosexual can change their orientation or vice versa? I think that a person who claims that they changed was bisexual from the start, but I’m interested to know what the teeming millions think.

2

I was first aware of my attraction to other boys at the age of 5. I hardly think I was capable of choosing this attraction at such an age, it was just something that happened, and it was very powerful and unforgettable. In all the years since, I have never felt such an attraction to a female, regardless of society’s constant pressures to “change.”

But there is one thing that is mine to choose: I choose to live my life honestly and openly and unapologetically, as an ethical, productive member of society. And I choose not to live a double life of lies, hypocrisy and shame, constantly afraid that other people will discover that i’m not just like them.

3

Someone can choose to have homosexual sex, but that doesn’t make him gay. Hell, someone can have heterosexual sex and that doesn’t make him straight.
I think the choice that homosexuals find themselves making for themselves is whether or not to come out of the closet.
I figure other choices might be along these line - “Gee whiz I’m attracted to guys. But I’m also attracted to girls. Do I want act on either desire, or both, or neither?”

In short basic psycholigical, emotional, or whatever, make-up isn’t chosen. Whether to act on ones desires is chosen.

Having read that it doesn’t sound quite right. It is my opinion that homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual, but some obviously do not act on their feelings (probably due to alot of sociological pressures) while others who have “chosen” to be gay have acted on their feelings.

Let me know if that sounds as insensitive as I think it might and I’ll try to better explain my thinking.

4

andygirl wrote:

Casual One-Nighter Gives Strom Thurmond Change Of Heart On Gay Issue

5

I understand that the argument “well, he or she CHOOSES to be gay” is used to trivialize the role that genetics plays in the homosexual issue. But I don’t understand why gays don’t take that argument and turn it around to their benifit.
Why the hell don’t you CHOOSE to be gay? Are you trapped as a homosexual? Would you rather, if actually given the choice, choose to be heterosexual? Or are you proud being gay? If the latter, then yes, you CHOOSE to be gay and should be happy with that choice.
Think about it like this: you could deny your feelings and try to have a relationship and marriage with the opposite sex. Instead, you admit that your feelings are you and have chosen to be gay.

Now, as far as studies are concerned, the researcher (I’ve forgotten his name) who came up with the 10% figure for gays in the general population actually came to a slightly different conclusion. 10% of the population is completely homosexual, 10% is completely heterosexual. The other 80% is a sliding scale of bi-sexuality, a bell curve if you will, with either mostly gay or mostly straight feelings. These results have never been conclusively reproduced (though the actual tests that he did have rarely been repeated), so we still generally accept the 10% number at face value.

Personally, I find myself near the 10% of heterosexuality. I’m willing to entertain the thought of a male sexual encounter, but I doubt I’ll ever go through with it.

6

I’m sure that there are some people (a small number, I suppose) that are very apathetically-sexual, in which it doesn’t matter in the slightest which gender they’re attracted to. How do I figure this? Heck, I’m one of 'em :smiley:

'Course, this probably doesn’t count as “choosing to be gay”, it just counts as asexuality.

Could it be possible that, in some cases, a person can “become homosexual” as a subconscious means of rebelling? Suppose a parent or grandparent were very anti-gay, and very vocal about these beliefs. Could it be possible that someone could reject those beliefs to the point that he or she actually develops emotional attractions to members of the same gender?

7

To me,(and I’m admittedly weird) the logical extension to the “Being gay is a choice” argument is that straight people could get off from homosexual sex, but simply choose not to. So until I hear Jerry Falwell cop to the fact that he could easily get a hummer from another man, I’m going with genetics.

8

As it turns out, some (I don’t know how many) bisexuals state that they did choose to go from being monosexual to being bisexual, in the same sense that one “chooses” one’s religion. Gore Vidal and Sondra Bernhardt have apparently stated that people should learn to become bisexual as part of their personal growth, and I wouldn’t be in the slightest bit surprised to learn that Susie Bright had too.

Bear in mind that declaring that people who go from mono to bi were really bisexual all along is bringing the question into the realm of nonfalsifiable claims. To choose an extreme case, if some guy is a leatherman who never dated a woman in his life, and (hypothetically speaking) after extensive fundie brainwashing were to become a straight, married suburbanite, then sure, you could claim that the fundies were really just bringing out some latent bisexuality and simultaneously suppressing his same-sex urges. But it would be impossible, even in theory, to find any evidence that could possibly prove that hypothesis incorrect, and as such it’s no different from fundies claiming that atheists all believe in Jesus and just won’t admit it out loud.

-Ben

9

That bi-topian argument - that monosexuals should become bi - is no different from the homophobic argument that gay people should become straight. It presumes the superiority of one sexual orientation to another, and that’s not something we need around here.

10

Actually, matt, some of us just can’t understand how anyone (male or female) can’t like breasts :smiley:

11

andygirl:

>>They are middle-aged or older. (I’ve yet to meet someone under the age of 25 who says that they made a choice.<<

Just a thought, here. Perhaps those of earlier generations were so much in denial of their orientation, that when at a later age they “realized” it, it was less dissonant psychologically to consider it a choice. To do otherwise is in effect to say that the earlier “straight” lifestyle was a sham. My father was gay, although raised Catholic, he married & had three children. However, he was never comfortable with homosexuality for himself, so he settled into a curmudgeonly single lifestyle with alot of curmudgeonly single gay friends. He died in '95, and I was always sorry he never had a lifelong partner to be intimate with, (using the broad sense of the word intimate.)

also, ender points out that sexuality is more accurately on a continuum, than polarized. I’ve heard this, and it does make some sense. I have 3 lesbian friends (ages 37, 36, 42) who all say they NEVER made a conscious choice to be lesbian, although all three did “experiment” with straight sex when younger. I also have a bi friend, who is very comfortable with hereself. We had lunch yesterday and in fact discussed the whole “choice” issue. I’m straight, and have never had the desire to have sex with a woman. I think I am comfortable & adventurous enough to have done so had I wished. But…what can I say. I guess I’m hardwired to like them yummy penises! :slight_smile:

12

Geez, I can’t believe I just said that.

13

[hijack]
My sexual orientaion is straight. I just wish I could convince a woman of that.
[/hijack]

:smiley:

14

Two points:

  1. The OP concerned whether sexual orientation can be changed, not whether it should be.

  2. “I know you like James Joyce, but I think you would benefit enormously from developing an appreciation for Shakespeare as well.” “That’s no different from saying that Ulysses should be banned!”
    -Ben

15

I have never heard of a “bi-topian” POV. Though a friend tells me that many gay/lesbian people regard bi’s as people who are really gay but afraid to commit. I must say, I can easily understand homosexuality in that one is oriented towards one particular gender. I have a hard time really understanding bisexuality, though. To be with a woman one week, & a man the next just seems…odd. Nothing wrong with it, with consenting adults & so on - I just have a hard time with the concept, I guess.

16

Ok, I think the whole “bi’s are really gay but are just afraid to commit” is a load of hoohockey right up there with “anyone can be straight if they really try”. I think this because I am sexually attracted to men and women and have been about as long as I can recall. It was never a choice. I’m not afraid to be homosexual, I am just not exclusively that way. There seems to be something beyond conscious thought that kicks in when an attractive person is in view.

Now on to the OP. Maybe if we look at attraction itself and ask, “Can you choose to be attracted to someone?” There are some people I do not find sexally attractive. Even some that are relatively good looking but just don’t do a thing for me. I have sexual fantasies about a lot of my friends, but ther are a few that I never will. The potential to have sex with them is the same as the the ones that i get off thinking about. There is no rational reason behind this utter lack of attraction. I have tried on occassion because I like my sexual fantasies to have varied casts. When one of these ppl wander into the fantasy, the whole thing just disintegrates and i find myself out of the mood.

I would not deem it impossible to choose your sexual orientation. I don’t know everyone’s experience. I don’t think it is the case with most.

17

I think that it’s fairly established that left-handedness is genetic.

Well, let’s take Cecil Adams, the smartest lefty in the world, and certainly the most prominent lefty on this board.

Say Cecil is late on a column and Ed Zotti, his editor, in a pissed-off state breaks Cecil’s hand. His left one. Surgery is required, and he can’t use his hand for a recovery time of two months.

Out of necessity, Cecil (after getting a new editor and pressing charges against Zotti) starts to write with his right hand. After two months of practice and repetition, he eventually learns to write as well with his right hand as he did with his left. He also learns to use his right hand for everything else - throwing a softball at the Chicago Reader annual picnic, and anything else you might think of.

So, the cast comes off. Having grown accustomed to the righty lifestyle - scissors that work for example - he continues to use his right hand for everything.

The question here: Is Cecil still a lefty even though he has abandoned using his left hand?

I sumbit that since his genetics says he is a lefty, that he is a lefty who is not using his left hand. His genetic makeup that made him prefer his left hand pretty much in the womb has not changed. Cecil is, and will always be, a lefty no matter what hand he uses, or even if he uses both!

Now, to continue the analogy, I’ll bet that some lefties got pens put in their right hands by well-meaning parents and teachers when they were young. I’ll bet after they got over this cultural trend (didn’t psychologists such as Freud discourage left-handedness?) and the bad penmanship, they simply kept using their right hands.

So, it would not surprise me that some people who are “programmed” to be homosexual would act straight. Heck, it doesn’t surprise me that people who are “programmed” to be straight have experimented for whatever reasons.

In any event, that’s my analogy. Feel free to poke holes in it…

Yer pal,
Satan

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18

It’s sort of like thinking a cat person should be a dog person too. You may think the dog looks nice, but that doesn’t mean you want to pet it.

19

I don’t know if orientation is a choice or not, but acting on it is. I may be oriented to lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, or fornication, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK for me to do those things.

20

And thank you for equating sexual orientation with lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, and fornication. Perhaps you could also put being judgemental and narrowminded on that list as well and stop doing those things.