Sexual orientation: is it ever a choice?

Satan,

I think a better analogy along those lines would deal with those who are ambidexterous. Some are left handed, some are right handed, some are both. You can’t choose, you just are.

I think the analogy falls apart at its creation. That Ed breaks his left hand and he has to write right handed. What’s the equivilant in terms of sexuality? What do you…um…break…to become interested in the opposite sex?

The whole concept of comparing your prefered hand to sexual orientation is interesting, though. Here’s an article concerning just that. http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/leftles.html

And what, pray tell, is wrong with lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, and fornication?

When I read this, I was struck with a vision of Blackadder…

-Ben

But that’s just a stereotype. Does being a straight woman mean that one sleeps with one man one week, another man the next week, and so on? Obviously not, because not all sexual desires can or should be acted upon. So why the assumption that bisexuals are promiscuous?

-Ben

Andygirl said:

This doesn’t help much, but when I saw the subject of this thread, I thought about a coworker of mine. She has always gotten along better with women than men and has told me on several occasions that she wishes she could choose to be a lesbian. Or, more precisely, she says: “I’d be a lesbian if it weren’t for the whole crotch thing.” (This was a rather tame statement for her…)

I have never, ever in my days encountered anyone who said they chose to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or straight, and I’ve been hanging out with many of these people for many years.

Esprix’s Pet Theory: As someone pointed out above, if roughly 10% of the population is exclusively homosexually-oriented, and roughly 10% of the population is exclusively heterosexually-oriented, that leaves 80% of the population to greater or lesser degrees bisexually-oriented. Given that 80% of the population does not admit to this, it seems to me that, to them, sexual orientation is a choice, because, for them, they’ve chosen to live a heterosexually-oriented life despite their homosexual feelings, to whatever extent they might have them. Therefore, the majority of the world does indeed think that homosexuality is a choice, since they, themselves, made such a choice. (This theory, of course, completely rejects the notion that sexual orientation, not chosen, is a seperate issue from sexual behavior, which is chosen. I didn’t say the majority of the world thought logically, now, did I?)

My pet theory.

Secondly, as several posters have so adequately said, defending one’s orientation as not being a choice is inferring, “Pity me, it’s not my fault, and I’d be different if I could.” This is a society that is supposed to allow freedom of expression in whatever form it takes, so even if it were a choice, people should feel comfortable to make that choice. OK, it’s a Utopian dream, but I’m allowed to dream if it I want to, so nyeh.

All in all, I think the percentage of people who either experiment or “choose” to be gay are statistically nil, and certainly less than homosexually-oriented people who try to be straight because of societal pressure.

Esprix

An interesting discussion.

First point to be made is that everyone is a unique individual, with personal tastes based on heredity, environment, interests, and so on. So every statement that begins “every … is …” is false on its face, and true only to the extent that it accurately describes a stereotype based more-or-less accurately on the “average” individual who belongs to the category.

That said, you are far more likely to find someone interested in discussing Jeff Gordon’s driving skills at a NASCAR track than a gay bar; conversely, in discussing whether he has a sexy body at a gay bar than a NASCAR track. Stereotypes and categories exist because they do provide useful generalizations.

Now, having gotten that far, let’s examine the OP. The question is asked whether “being gay is ever a choice.” By way of example, the question of whether any Lesbians choose to be so, based on women who come out after ostensibly happy marriages, is set before us.

Now, gay men share with Lesbians the characteristic of being sexually attracted to the same sex, and the status of being in a minority orientation which is sometimes severely condemned or persecuted. However, it is one of those useful true stereotypes that men and women are different. They operate with differing levels of various hormones, follow different bodily cycles, are culturally differentiated from birth, and so on. No element of this may be true for some particular individual, and I don’t want it to seem to be a stupid sexist remark, but there is validity to it as a generalization. How many of you have noted that a male poster is far more likely to take umbrage with an abstract assertion than a female, with the interesting exception that lady lawyers, with both initial interest and training in a field where polemic argumentation is the norm, will react in a ‘male’ manner. (One of those classic cases of “exceptio regulam probat,” as Cecil would say.)

So let’s examine this. Most out gay men and Lesbians will tell you that their sexual orientation is not a choice, that they felt “different” from age X, when they first noticed the idea that “one is supposed to feel thus and so, and I don’t” on.

In same-sex friendship bonds, women tend to be much more emotive, demonstrative in their feelings, than do men. Faced with a friend’s encountering a traumatic emotional shock, women (as a stereotype) are inclined to embrace, comfort, and encourage the traumatized friend to cry it out and talk it out, while men, no less willing to help, will take the friend to a bar and buy him a beer and listen to him talk through it, take him aside and pray with him, or whatever works in that friendship that does not place (non-sexual) physical intimacy on the line. Again as a stereotype, (straight) men are fearful of showing intimate feelings for another man – this may be true for some gay men as well.

Now we enter into the question of individuality. Hastur asserted in the marathon game of Rook in the Pit that “nobody is exclusively straight or gay.” Though I’d disagree as a nit-pick, I take his main point: that those are extremes of a spectrum into which most people fit. Commonly a straight man had the question run through his mind in early adolescence of wondering what it would be like to get it on with his best (male) friend, was too scared by social values to act on it, and has never had another same-sex impulse. But on the standard Hastur implies, he’s “not totally straight.” And effectively, he’s right.

Which leads me to the conclusion that the average individual is in some small degree bisexual. He/she may identify as “gay” or “straight” but there exists the person with whom he/she could step out of his/her asserted category, feel attraction for and possibly have satisfactory sex with. I was in past years familiar with a young man of fairly high sex drive whose primary orientation was to women and had quite satisfactory ongoing liaisons with them but who was quite capable of responding to another man, and in fact desired sex with other men from time to time, and this primarily but not exclusively in the “masculine” role (oral-passive, anal-active, and please don’t flame me for the obsolete categorization; I’m reflecting his thinking in it). But he considered himself “straight.” And he was right. Only he can truly categorize himself, and that was the orientation with which he identified. I will allow that there was a certain amount of denial there, but I trust you take my point.

Now I am drawing the picture in this analysis that the “Lesbians-by-choice” are women who did have some bisexual tendencies, and who, coming out of heterosexual liaisons that were somewhat traumatic, were comforted in that mostly-women intimate mode, reacted sexually to the intimacy, and changed the focus of their sexuality to “save all their lovin’ for someone who’s lovin’ [them]” to paraphrase Donna Summer.

This does not contravene but rather reinforces the “not a choice” point – that those who identify as gay are so because their primary orientation and comfort zone is with same-sex relationships. Certainly any gay male poster here could go out tonight, encounter a willing woman, and have sex with her – presuming his willingness to cooperate and the natural physiological reactions of the human body, the act could be consummated, though he might, uh, need more assistance than the typical straight man. And the same would hold true for women.

This, however, does not deal with primary attraction. Whom one finds sexually attractive is the question at hand. And in general that will be some subset of humanity – I find it hard to conceive of getting inside the mind of a person who could find every other human sexually attractive. That primary attraction is to a selected category of people: buxom blondes, svelte redheads, anorexic women who wear green silk dresses, tall slender men with large penises, heavyset hairy men, blonde muscular men over 40, redheaded men who can imitate Daffy Duck, or whatever. If that category is of the opposite sex, the person identifies as straight; of the same sex, gay; and if it overlaps gender lines, bi. And this taste appears not to be chooseable. It may (is likely to) vary over time, but is not something over which the person has control. He or she may condition him or herself to find a given group to which he or she was initially attracted as beyond the bounds of attractiveness, but this is an ongoing process, not a strict question of “choice.”

By no stretch of the imagination did I ever have any choice about feeling a sexual attraction towards women. What do DO about it, on the other hand, required complex choices to be made, and long before that had been worked out I found myself in situations where the option of sexual experiences and relationships with men presented itself and required choices as well.

Being attracted to girls and women didn’t in and of itself cause anything sexual to happen between me and them. Nothing that seemed to come natural to me bridged this gap.

Not being spectacularly stupid, I was able to hear some rather loud and omnipresent cultural messages about how I should behave in order to bridge this gap–a set of behaviors I’ll call “male heterosexually aggressive behavior”–as well as some more ominous ones about what it meant if I didn’t find these behaviors to come natural to me–more or less a combination of “you won’t get any, then” and “you must be gay then because that’s what happens to guys like you since that’s all that’s left”.

Being, however, spectacularly stubborn, I became angry and cynical about the rules & structured bullshit of ‘doing heterosexuality’; angry and then bitter. And still a virgin. Opportunities with some pretty nice male people kept cropping up and it was nice to be desired, to have someone express interest in me; I was lonely, generically horny, and it would have been nice even to be held. Being accused of it anyway, …could die a virgin 90 years from now as far as matters with girls are concerned, so why not give it a try? And if nice things happen, well…everyone SAYS that is who I am, you know…? I’m obviously not ‘normal’…

As it turns out, though, I had a prior history of mainly BAD relationships with boys in general; however ripe I might have been for joining a sexual and social subculture of males who weren’t into the “man thing”, I wasn’t exactly entranced by a gay culture that was really getting into gay macho, and my fumblings and experimentations left me feeling used and filthy and hated. And THAT made me angrier still (as well as bewildered and confused, i.e., “OK, then what the hell AM I, then?”) which eventually led to the formulation of a sexual identity as “heterosexual sissy”.

I think some minor differences in my experiences in my late teens and early 20s could have led to other choices. I can imagine myself a gay man, or (more likely) a bisexual guy who chooses not to do anything with the heterosexual side of myself.

“Heterosexual sissy” - I like that. Brave. :slight_smile:

But that’s your sexual identity - what is your sexual orientation? And do you really think your inherent orientation could or would have changed as late as your 20’s? I find that hard to believe, but would like to hear your take on it.

Esprix

How can those things be externally distinguished? Or even internally distinguished?

“Sexual orientation” is a concept of personal opinion anyway; I find myself attracted to women because I like the way they look/smell/sound. But your only way of knowing I’m heterosexual is to

A) Take my word for it, or
B) Examine my behaviour.

Your question of AHunter seems to assert that how he behaved was distinct from his “orientation,” which seems to be his assertion as well, but where lies the dividing line between those things? Sexual orientation cannot be objectively identified except on the word of the subject; how can that be accurately distinguished from their behaviour?

Are we all in agreement that science is still out on the gene thing? I mean leaving out “studies suggest” and “research implies,” the bottom line is that we have not isolated a gay gene.

So what we have to go on is the testimony of people who are gay/bi/whatever. And I’m prepared to give that a lot of weight. The vast majority of homosexuals say they did not make a conscious choice; but there are some who have said they did. Some are named above. Camille Paglia is another. I remember reading a book or essay by some 1950’s existentialist who said he had chosen homosexuality as a philosophical statement, and that others had as well. It seems to me that if we accept the testimony of one group, we have to accept the testimony of the other.

It seems to me eminently likely that there is a complex brew of things that go into making someone homosexual. Genetics, psychology, experiences, and free will can all go into it, just as they can go into making someone a mass murderer or a selfless saint. Some of these things may be conscious, others may not.

Just because one person found themselves predisposed to a lifestyle doesn’t rule out that someone else chose it, and vice versa.

RickJay, I was asking, somewhat obliquely, from a psychological point of view - sexual identity, sexual orientation, and gender identity are three seperate issues (in fact, I might even be forgetting a fourth aspect to sexuality, but it eludes me at the moment). I’ll try and pull some cites on this, but no doubt a lot of transgendered folk know more about this than I ever will.

Esprix

I think the problem with defining something like bi-sexuality is that there is just not a real scal that EVERYONE can agree on.

Like what do you even base it on? It it as simple as genital attraction or can it be romantic attraction?

I consider myself a heterosexual, but I like (or at least have liked) to kiss boys or boyish men. I have enjoyed some levels of passive sexuality with those men but I find myself questioning exactly how bi-sexual this even makes me for several reasons.

All the males I have been with are somewhat feminine in manner and appearance (quite a few “real” tvs’.) and my role has been pretty much passive (greedy aren’t I?) because, frankly, peni and testicles (especially testicles) kinda’ gross me out.

So, does this make me bi-sexual? Seems like the answer varies depending on who I ask and weather that person is a phobe or that person wants me to fuck him. Two real life quotes “You let a guy suck your dick? Fag!”, from “straight” guy obviously. “Well, I know you have been with other guys so come on we could have fun.”- A bus driver I made friends with when I tried briefly to be eco friendly last year. Guess what he was after (this leads to a question which I will ask as a p.s. at then end).

I think the real problem is that no one wants to let you decide for yourself what you are. Like it’s everyone else’s job to tell you you are gay, straight, or bi. You have no choice in it. Kinda’ smells like bullshit to me but it seems that that is how it is.

Now for my p.s. question.

I have been celibate for about two years now. I just haven’t felt like getting into that kind of relationship for some time. Anyhow a few women have come on to me and an even smaller few act like they are in heat when I let them know that I"m not interested, but that is a really smally number (on the order of 10% overall). Also a few men (like the previously mentioned bus driver) have come on to me as well. The thing is, I have made friends with a lot of women and most of them are preyy casual and are fine with being friends but I would estimate that 70% of the gay men I have made friends with have misconstrued it for a come on. What gives? I think back over my life and this is not unique to the past two years. When I was in HS and college it was the same thing. I liked to go clubbing and all the good clubs in Portland are gay or predomiantly gay friendly (unless you like “hip hop” aka crap) so I have been around a lot of gay guys since I was a Sophomore and it has always been like this. I could almost guarantee that if I made friends with a guy he would come on to me. whats the deal? Is it just an age thing or are all guys like this? How do the gay men here feel about other gay men who prey on straight guys or guys who don’t show any interest? I mean I have been pretty direct and saud I’m not interested in anything more than friendship and not made out with these guys or anything to give them the wrong idea, I’m not even a slut with women, so why would guys thing I’m going to be a slut with them? Is it considered cool to bag a straight guy or do you guys think it is kinda’ assholish?

First principles: what is sexual orientation? Let’s take the cliched example of a guy, Mr. Brown, who “experimented” in college. It’s twenty years later, he’s married with 3 kids, and he’s never had the urge to repeat the experience. Do we all agree he’s straight? I think so, and by choosing to experiment that one time, he didn’t “choose” to be homosexual.
Now, say that on the tenth and twentieth anniversary of the night of the “experiment”, Mr. Brown reenacts it. Still straight?
What about once a year? Once a month?
We can’t have this discussion until we define sexual orientation. Further, I think that the “sexual continuum” theory makes the definition process immeasurably more difficult. Let’s take the gay man at the far end of spectrum - to quantify, he’s 99% gay and 1% straight. (bitch at the quantification, if you will - I’m trying to make a point :p) He ends up with a woman. Is he choosing to be with a woman, and therefore “choosing” his sexual orientation, or has he been “socialized” to repress his homosexuality? After all, he had that 1% potential to be straight. The argument works in reverse.
To personalize it, many years ago my (female) roommate starting dating/sleeping with a man who had self-identified as gay. She was the first woman he had ever been with. As he admitted some time into the relationship, he had never dated/slept with a man, either (he was pretty young). What the hell was he? The three of us never determined this, only concluding that we should go on “Oprah” and let her decide :smiley:
Personally, I’ve always been a big fan of the “choosing” hypothesis, but turning it on its head to be a point of gay pride.
Sua

Ben: You misunderstood, I didn’t at all mean to imply that bisexuals are promiscuous. I was just trying to make the point that being able to enjoy sex equally with both genders is something I can’t understand. Not that it’s wrong, just that I don’t understand it. Same way I don’t understand watching televised sports or how someone could like sauerkraut or diet soda.

That said, I’ll just add I never “chose” to be straight. I did read somewhere that at the height of the “womens’ lib” movement in the 70’s, there was a trend for some militantly feminist women to choose to be lesbians, as a political statement of sorts. But would that make a woman who “chooses” actually a lesbian? Sexual orientation/choice/whatever is more than just choosing who to have sex with, obviously, which is what makes this a difficult question.

I always figured the militant anti-gay folks must think that “gay” sex is a whole lot more fun that “straight” sex, to believe so strongly in the choice theory. Which does raise questions about their own sexual identity & secret desires. Why a teenager would “choose” to be gay at a time when adolescents strongly want to be part of the in-group is something I don’t understand, and indicates orientation, rather than choice.

Basically I don’t see why people get upset about who other people are having sex with.

How, specifically, can you objectively demonstate that it’s “more than just choosing who to have sex with”?

It’s easy to assume that how we “Feel” (I feel innately attracted to females) differs from how we act (I could choose to have sex with anyone) but I think we can all agree that the line between desire and action is not that easily drawn. If sexual orientation is a mishmash of biological and environmental factors, I don’t see how you can distinguish between orientation and behaviour except for what people SAY, and in my experience what people say they value/desire/want and what they really do value/desire/want are often very different. “Sexual orientation” cannot be objectively defined if we go by nebulous criteria like what people say they want to do.

I always figured the militant anti-gay folks must think that “gay” sex is a whole lot more fun that “straight” sex, to believe so strongly in the choice theory. Which does raise questions about their own sexual identity & secret desires. Why a teenager would “choose” to be gay at a time when adolescents strongly want to be part of the in-group is something I don’t understand, and indicates orientation, rather than choice.

Basically I don’t see why people get upset about who other people are having sex with.

**
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zen101, your question is certainly OT in this thread, so perhaps it’s something you might want to post in the Gay Guy III thread?

Au contraire. From the American Psychological Association:

Regardless of what a person says s/he may or may not feel, it is indeed their feelings that deliniate orientation, not behavior.

Esprix

First, I’d like to find out what people (particularly 'Sprix and andygirl) think of my analysis (27th post in this thread, dated 10/30/00 11:55 AM). I made some broad-brush assumptions in it that I’d welcome evaluation of.

Second, Sua is IMHO looking for neat categories that do not exist. People’s responses to any given stimulus vary all over the map; why suppose their orientations will fit neatly into prelabeled compartments? Even the generic ideas of “straight” and “gay” are nebulous enough to include the man who is interested in no other woman but his wife (either from deep love or religious conviction, or perhaps because he is fixated/imprinted on her – rare but I have encountered a couple such cases over the years) and the promiscuous guy who doesn’t care so long as she has… I’m quite sure you can note a similar range of attitude among gay men and Lesbians; I feel as though trying to paint those categories for them would be a bit of a slam, coming “from the outside” as it would be.

Perhaps I’m misreading Sua’s comments, but orientation is not a simple thing. AHunter, if I’ve understood you correctly over the years of reading posts in which you make reference to your personality and orientation, you identify as “straight but effeminate” and what you desire, fantasize about, etc., is exclusively women. Correct?

Polycarp that is exactly my point. People’s response to sexual stimuli run all over the map; so how can we talk about people choosing or not choosing to be in one of the prelabeled compartments? If a man who is predominatly heterosexual in orientation, but has some attraction to men ends up with a man in a life-long relationship, is he (a) choosing to be gay, or (b) acting on his natural inclinations? To my mind, the only way we can discuss choice and homosexuality is if we accept the existence of the prelabeled compartments. If the “sexual continuum” theory is valid, there is only going to be a very small population who are exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Unless, of course, it isn’t a bell curve, which calls into doubt the validity of the continuum theory.

Sua

Yeah, that’s accurate.