Political Compass #37: What's good for corporations is always good for everyone.

Many political debates here have included references to The Political Compass, which uses a set of 61 questions to assess one’s political orientation in terms of economic left/right and social libertarianism/authoritarianism (rather like the “Libertarian diamond” popular in the US).

And so, every so often I will begin a thread in which the premise for debate is one of the 61 questions. I will give which answer I chose and provide my justification and reasoning. Others are, of course, invited to do the same including those who wish to “question the question”, as it were.

It would also be useful when posting in these threads to give your own “compass reading” in your first post, by convention giving the Economic value first. My own is
SentientMeat: Economic: -5.12, Social: -7.28, and so by the above convention my co-ordinates are (-5.12, -7.28). Please also indicate which option you ticked. I might suggest what I think is the “weighting” given to the various answers in terms of calculating the final orientation, but seeing for yourself what kind of answers are given by those with a certain score might be more useful than second-guessing the test’s scoring system.

Now, I appreciate that there is often dissent regarding whether the assessment the test provides is valid, notably by US conservative posters, either because it is “left-biased” (??) or because some propositions are clearly slanted, ambiguous or self-contradictory. The site itself provides answers to these and other Frequently Asked Questions, and there is also a separate thread: Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading? [size=2]Read these first and then, if you have an objection to the test in general, please post it there. If your objection is solely to the proposition in hand, post here. If your objection is to other propositions, please wait until I open a thread on them. (And for heaven’s sake, please don’t quote this entire Opening Post when replying like this sufferer of bandwidth diarrhea.)

The above will be pasted in every new thread in order to introduce it properly, and I’ll try to let each one exhaust itself of useful input before starting the next. Without wanting to “hog the idea”, I would be grateful if others could refrain from starting similar threads. To date, the threads are:
Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading?
Political Compass #1: Globalisation, Humanity and OmniCorp.
#2: My country, right or wrong
#3: Pride in one’s country is foolish.
#4: Superior racial qualities.
#5: My enemy’s enemy is my friend.
#6: Justifying illegal military action.
#7: “Info-tainment” is a worrying trend.
#8: Class division vs. international division. (+ SentientMeat’s economic worldview)
#9: Inflation vs. unemployment.
#10: Corporate respect of the environment.
#11: From each according to his ability, to each according to need.
#12: Sad reflections in branded drinking water.
#13: Land should not be bought and sold.
#14: Many personal fortunes contribute nothing to society.
#15: Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade.
#16: Shareholder profit is a company’s only responsibility.
#17: The rich are too highly taxed.
#18: Better healthcare for those who can pay for it.
#19: Penalising businesses which mislead the public.
#20: The freer the market, the freer the people.
#21: Abortion should be illegal.
#22: All authority must be questioned.
#23: An eye for an eye.
#24: Taxpayers should not prop up theatres or museums.
#25: Schools shouldn’t make attendance compulsory.
#26: Different kinds of people should keep to their own.
#27: Good parents sometimes have to spank their children.
#28: It’s natural for children to keep secrets.
#29: Marijuana should be legalised.
#30: School’s prime function is equipping kids to find jobs.
#31: Seriously disabled people should not reproduce.
#32: Learning discipline is the most important thing.
#33: ‘Savage peoples’ vs. ‘different culture’
#34: Society should not support those who refuse to work.
#35: Keep cheerfully busy when troubled.
#36: First generation immigrants can never be fully integrated.
[/size]
Proposition #37: What’s good for the most successful corporations is always, ultimately, good for all of us.

SentientMeat (-5.12, -7.28) ticks Disagree.
Oh, to live in an ideal world, where “trickle down” actually worked, natural resources were inexhaustible and both society and the planet itself were invulnerable to any negative consequences of capitalism.

Unfortunately, I live on a planet called ‘Earth’ where what makes a corporation successful is not always “good for all of us”. Certainly, sometimes it is good for some of us. I would even say that it is usually good for most of us. But always, for all?

The principal issues appear to be [ul][li]The environment[/li][li]Public Safety[/li][li]Slave labour[/li][li]Sexism/racism/discrimination.[/li][li]Biodiversity[/li][li]Indigenous peoples[/ul]Now, one might say “Ah, but if the corporate decisions lead to violations of those principles, the corporation’s image (and thus ultimately success) suffers accordingly. In any case, most of those violations are against the law.”[/li]
This attempt to nigh define profitable corporate actions as good for all of us is, I feel, wishful thinking. The law is not uniform, globally speaking, and thus the countries where the law is weakest in some respect are most vulnerable to exploitation. And would that the global market of consumers were so visionary regarding the consequences of their purchases and so discriminating and well-informed of the corporations they were paying! It is simply not the case that a corporation which achieves success to the detriment of “all of us” as embodied by the above will necessarily suffer a consumer backlash.

Union Carbide was a successful corporation. In an attempt to maintain its success by minimising costs, it compromised safety protocols designed to prevent pressurisation of methyl isocyanate in its Indian plant and killed, maimed or blinded 50,000 people. Vast quantities of toxic waste have still not been cleared up, and still appear to affect the health of the people in the region.

Exxon was a successful corporation. In an attempt to maintain its success by minimising costs, it neglected to repair or replace the radar equipment on one of its ships, the Valdez, which effectively sailed without any radar for over a year. It crashed and spilled millions of gallons of oil onto over a thousand miles of Alaskan coastline. It is projected that ecological recovery will take 30 years.

In 2001, Union Carbide and Exxon became subsidiaries of the Dow Chemical Company, the producers of napalm and Agent Orange during the Vietnam war and one of the companies responsible for several ‘creeping dead zones’ worldwide from its pollution. It is the second largest chemical company in the world - how’s that for “successful”?

At the present rate of destruction the world’s rainforests will disappear during this century, yet multinational logging corporations like Rimbunan Hijau remain successful. Overfishing has depleted many stocks to below their critical biomass level, yet multinational fishing corporations like Mitsubishi remain successful. Sweatshop workers may be exploited throughout the developing world, yet multinational sports clothing companies like Nike and Reebok remain successful, somewhat appropriately winning the race to the bottom.

Sometimes, what is good for the most successful companies is not ultimately good for all of us. #37 is hopelessly dogmatic in its universals.

Obviously Union Carbide and Exxon were successful despite some decisions made by the management. The Bhopal incident and the Valdez crash costs the companies invaluable goodwill (the second and third google on those company names lead to sites detailing those disasters) and billions of dollars and the things that led to them were clearly not good business decision. So I’d say those are beside the point since they are merely examples of what is bad for successful corporations.

Of course nothing is ever good for all of us if you mean every single individual, but if you think the collective us, humanity or just the American people since you mention only American companies it may be easier to see what they mean by the proposition – that’s what I thought about when I read it.

Slavery was good for the slave sellers, but good for the overall economy and people since it’s an ineffective way of conduction work. Abolishing slavery was good for us “all” since it ultimately made us all richer.

Polluting the environment is sometimes good in the short term but long term it’s a bad business decision since it undermines your own business.

I don’t know how you can say either of sexism, racism or discrimination can ever be good business decisions. A successful business usually wouldn’t give a damn how you look or feel or pee as long as you perform as expected.

Biodiversity and indigenous peoples. Wiping out a species or an indigenous tribe may be good for a company and simultaneously good for the nation (if the people feel so) – personally I’d go to great lengths to try to preserve those, at the expense of the best interest of corporation and people.

Disagree. Because of the “always”.
-1.15 / 7.15

Trickle down economics did not work under Reagan, and it won’t work now. In the Reagan years, it led to massive layoffs, corporate raidng, corporate looting of retirement funds, hostile take-overs, and massive financial deals that were only on paper. Meanwhile the “working class” often found themselves out on the street (literally). The artificial oil shortage during the 1970’s was very good for the oil companies, but not for anyone else. There was no shortage, I was in Panama at the time and clear out to the horizon were tankers just sitting, waiting for the “right” price. They got their price and the tankers vanished. The Enron “adventure” in California would have been very good for Enron, if they hadn’t been caught. A company’s purpose seems to be to produce dividends and high stock prices - even to the point of falsely inflating the stock values for quick proift by the “big shots”.

On to the other things - “My country right or wrong” - Isn’t that what was going on in World War 2? Germans fought for their country, despite the fact that a maniac was in charge.
“Superior racial qualities” - Nazis again. Anyone “inferior” is less than human and can be eliminated (?)
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” - Does not work. You wind up with people who work hard and get almost nothing, while others do nothing and get a lot - Communism or the welfare state. The worker soon learns to NOT work, because he gets no return. The old “Why bust my ass so someone else gets it all at my expense”.
“Society should not support those who refuse to work” - AGREE. If someone is unable to work, or was laid off / fired, that is different. But if someone just refuses, to hell with him. See above, about welfare states.
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” - The Godfather. Your enemy’s enemy may be useful, but that doesn’t mean you should trust him.
Corporate respect for the environment - Nope, haven’t noticed any.
“The freer the market, the freer the people” - Look up antitrust legislation and robber barons. Many of the controls businessmen complain about, are inplace because of gross abuses in the past.
“An eye for an eye” -YES. But in the way it was meant when written. It was an attempt to stop revenge killings mostly. It was saying do not punish someone in excess, it was saying “let the puunishment fit the crime”. That was a time when people still took part in blood feuds and killed each other for the slightest offense.
“Different kinds of people should keep to their own” - Too much loke Archie Bunker. Too much like the old “separate but equal”. Blacks and whites were separate, but were not equal.
“All authority should be questioned” - Not all, but some. Just because some loudmouth declares himself to be an expert or “in charge” doesn’t make it so.

That’s enough verbage I guess. According to the poitifcal compass I am a left wing liberal tree hugging Commie pinko, because the questions and answers are is worded in certain ways. It is a classic case of a survey being tilted in favor of a certain “finding”, by careful selection of what is said, and how it is said.

Damn, way to hold a grudge! Now tell us how they’re involved with the massive pollution coming from India and China. (Neither of which are members of the U.S.-bashing Kyoto Protocol)

You want me to help you construct a Tu Quoque fallacy? I will condemn corporations from any country (or indeed multinationals) which pursue financial success to the detriment of “all of us”.

-2, -3.28

Disagree, of course, due to the “always” and “all” – This is one of the items designed to filter out people who will not stop to read carefully what the proposal actually says.

Read literally, any rational person would not be able to agree with this statement because of the “always” included.

However, by spending as much time studying this test as we have, I have come to learn that it is generally carelessly worded. Also, the test is biased to the left due to questions worded like this one that force a conservative to hold thier nose and agree in order to accurately reflect thier views on the issue.

Considering all that I reluctantly agree with the statement. The word “ultimately” helps a lot. Even if something is bad for “all of us” in the short term or for a certain situation, the idea that what is good for companies ultimately benefits people is true.

Funny that - I consider it to biased towards the right due to the nose-holding and caveats I’ve had to engage in. Each sees opposite bias, perhaps?

Obviously I would have to disagree with the premise, the only question is whether one would disagree or strongly disagree. I’m a firm believer in capitalism because I believe that on average everyone’s lives will be vastly improved by capitalism. But of course the buggy whip manufacturer is going to be harmed by the introduction of cars. His problem is mitigated because he can now buy a car himself, but his business is certainly in trouble.

As Hayek pointed out, capitalism certainly doesn’t always produce the most “fair” result. People don’t always succeed because they worked harder or had a better idea. Often businesses succeed by pure luck…they just happened to be making a product or providing a service that suddenly is more in demand for unforseen reasons. Amd businesses can fail even with the best products, best plans, and smartest business models because the business environment is inherently unpredictable. And people get hit by trucks or some such.

If the statement was “What’s good for corporations is usually good for most of us” I would strongly agree.

I suppose the makers of this quiz intentionally created misleading questions, but for the life of me I can’t understand why. OK, they are trying to get people’s gut reaction. But surely people who read the quiz superficially would have the same gut reactions to clearly worded questions. So many of these questions are written so that only an idiot would respond in the “wrong” way. Take this question for instance. I suppose this is trying to differentiate between people who believe in capitalism, and those who are skeptical of capitalism. But it fails to do that. I’m about as strong a believer in capitalism as anyone can be, but I would have to chose disagree for this question. So what is the question trying to prove? That only idiots hold extreme outlying positions? The test seems designed to prove that people who pay attention to the questions will score as moderates, since so many are ambigous or trick questions.

However, if you read the “all of us” portion of the statement to be “society” than the statement is easy to agree with. Also, in your statement isn’t the buggy whip manufacturer ultimately going to benefit by all of the great things about cars? Or you could simply state that all people benefit from living in such a society, even where there is suffering in the short term like the buggy whip manufacturer.

There are ways to agree with the statement, but you really have to stretch it thin because of the poor wording of the question.

Supply Side Economics, which you mistaken called trickle down, does not operate under the assumptions of this Policitcal Compass proposal. Having gotten that out of the way…

This is another proposition with which I disagree. It’s so easily dismissed that I don’t really have much to add to what others have posted.

I think we’re now up to 3-in-a-row that are just no-brainers.

For those who think the test is biased, I offered this data awhile back. Make of it what you will:

Always check STRONGLY DISAGREE: 0.00/-4.36
Always check STRONGLY AGREE: 0.00/4.36
Always check DISAGREE: -0.25/-2.41
Always check AGREE: 0.38/2.41

It seems that the “neutral point” is 0.13/0.00.

I disagree. Often, it is true but definitely not always. It might be good for a corporation’s bottom line to outsource manufacturing to nations with slave labor and no environmental regulations, but ultimately these are not good for everyone. I’m sure nearly any chemical plant would be more profitable if they could dump their waste directly into the nearest stream, but of course that is not good for all.

Its a ridiculously loaded question IMO. ALWAYS good? Nothing is ALWAYS good. For ALL of us? Absolutely nothing is good for ALL of us (with the possible exception of food, water and air…and even though aren’t ALWAYS good for ALL of us).

So, the obvious answer you HAVE to give is ‘disagree’…just because of the way the question was asked.

XT checks disagree in disgust…lets move on.

-XT

As spoken by Ned Beatty almost 30 years ago.

Obviously not “always” and “everyone” but in general “yes”.
Hippies and freak-os always paint corporations as black holes that simply suck up resources and money. This is not true. Corporations (really “large companies” since there are other legal entities besides S-corps) provide goods and services that everyone uses. These products and service benefit us all. Large companies provide jobs. They generate wealth. Maybe the freaky tree-hugging commie Liberals want to live in a world where we all grow our own food and the only jobs are cottage industries making hemp pants and bongs. I don’t.

Actually, m, one of the reasons I started this series of threads was to provide a forum wherein people of whatever ‘side’ could realise that they might be mischaracterising their opposition.

I rather wonder whether the people you characterise so really exist, at least in significant numbers?

-5.62, -5.49

I chose “strongly disagree.”

Corporations do not exist for the betterment of mankind. They exist to make money. Capitalism is not about sharing.

GM certainly benefitted by cutting costs when they closed the Flint, MI plant, but I don’t think anyone would argue that the closing was good for Flint. Deciding not to make upgrades to a plant because paying the EPA fine is cheaper may save the company money, but it could do terrible damage down the road. Outsourcing to India saves the company millions, but greatly hurts the workers and the communities which used to support that business. Sucking up “corporate welfare” money from the government may help the business, but takes money away which could be spent on more worthy causes.

I don’t necessarily think the problem is the corporations themselves. We Americans have decided that access to cheap consumer goods is far more important than jobs or the enviornment. And we will have to live with the consequences.