Not sure if this belongs in the pit because it is a* very mild rant, * it might fall under the category “Mundane Pointless Info” but…
There is a family that lives on my block that I know but not very well, however I did joke around with the husband every now and then, and did watch the superbowl at that house once also their son “Patrick” is friends with one of my step brothers so “Patrick” has been in my house quite a few times in the past.
They also have 2 other kids and I found out that the husband died like on the 20th of December I just didn’t find out until recently. My mom told me to go to the “Johnson Family” and give them a sympathy card which had been signed by every person in our house.
I was shocked about the death because, Mr. Johnson was a pretty cool guy. When I got in the house I saw “Patrick” moping around and Mrs. Johnson was telling me that since “Patrick” was the only boy he was really close to his dad and was having a harder time getting over it.
I gave her the card and told her that my mom and family will be here if she needs anything, blah, blah blah and she said she was doing “ok”.
By the time I get outside Patrick was on the front porch sitting on a chair looking sad and I asked him a stupid question “what’s wrong?”.
The he breaks down crying, saying I’m going to miss my dad.
I told him that his dad was in Heaven and that his dad could see him right now and would want him to be happy, someday that he would see his dad in Heaven and that his dad was probably having a great time in Heaven.
Guess what? It worked he was feeling better and was asking me all these questions about Heaven and getting really excited and eventually he wasn’t crying.
The mother comes out and says “START I’m sorry honey I know you mean well but we don’t believe in Heaven or Hell” and then tells the kid that his dad was not in heaven but in the “good memories” of him that he had.
“Patrick” says “he can see me right now?” and Mrs. Johnson said “no he can’t see you but you can see him in pictures and your good memories”.
“Patrick” then says something about talking to his dad when he gets to Heaven and Mrs. Johnson says “you will not be able to talk to him again but you will be able to remember all the…” she didn’t get to finish her sentence because “Patrick” threw a tantrum and went back into the house.
Mrs. Johnson told me to please talk to her before I try to “convert one of her children”.
I am definitely a Christian but I was not trying to witness or convert it wasn’t even on my mind to be honest, I was just trying to make a little boy feel better and it worked until his mother came with all that good memories crap.
How can it hurt for a 7 year old to believe their dad went to Heaven when he died?
Come on, the kid is 7 years old and he wouldn’t find out whether or not his dad is in Heaven until he also died, I spent 10 minutes with him and potentially gave him 80- 93 years of comfort, that is until the good memories and pictures crap. Come on what person religous or not doesn’t mention Heaven when comforting a 7 year old who just lost someone close?
In case you didn’t know, ALL NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED.
Non religious people don’t mention Heaven, and yes, you were trying to convert her son, though you weren’t doing it intentionally. Your intentions were good, but you seem to think that everyone believes as you do, deep down. No, this isn’t the case.
Why couldn’t you just let them deal with their grieve in their own manner?
Why do you feel it necessary to force your religious beliefs on somebody.
I cannot believe that you cannot see anything wrong in your actions.
Sheesh, some people.
START shared a word of comfort with Patrick, it worked & Patrick’s Mom pissed all over it. Maybe Patrick needs to hear other perspectives than his narrow bigoted Mom’s. G
If START had told him that his Dad was in Heaven IF he’d believed in Jesus but if not, Dad was in Hell & desperately wants Patrick to believe in Jesus so that he doesn’t go there, THEN START would need to be bitch-slapped.
“Good memories and pictures”, my ass. Might as well tell Patrick that his Dad will live on in the worms & microbes that consume his body.
The boy didn’t need a speech about Heaven, he needed a hug and a shoulder to cry on. Your conversion might have been unintentional, but it was still inappropriate. The mother of the child has every right to tell her child whatever “crap” she believes is correct, including that there isn’t an afterlife. It seems you have a bit of a superiority complex about your faith. The proper thing to do when someone is grieving is to stay silent and let them work their grief out, not attempt to “comfort” them with beliefs that they might not even subscribe to (or in this case, that the parents don’t subscribe to). I think that in this case you might have wound up confusing and upsetting this kid even more.
That’s about the only way I can think of to say it. Seems a bit harsh on a kid though. I suppose you could try to be poetic and go off on some tangent about being made of “star stuff” and eventually returning to the stars, but I’m not sure that would be comforting to a seven year old.
Well, after the worms & microbes do their work & then rot into the Earth & then when the Sun flares up right before it dies, consuming the Earth, THEN Dad will return to being star stuff, at least before the dead Sun compresses into a black hole.
Patrick’s mother is between a rock and a hard place. She could keep quiet and allow Patrick to believe pleasant lies, or she could be the bad guy and tell him an unpleasant truth. Now I know you don’t think of it the same way, but to an atheist that is what it boils down to. I wouldn’t be happy to have my emotionally shattered seven year come to me ask if it’s true like the neighbour says, that his father has gone to a magical fairyland, and neither would you. The difference here is that you believe what you’re talking about, you’re not just making it up for the child’s benefit - but to an atheist, it’s still all just fiction.
She’s only between a rock and a hard place because START was rude and insensitive enough to squeeze her in there. Had he kept his yap shut about the fairy tale nonsense, the poor kid could have been realistic about his father’s death.
Good for you, START. It’s the family’s place to decide how they want to raise their child of course, but you did what you could with what you were familiar with. And you did it before knowing anyone would object. The mother sounds like an extremely patient person and my heart goes out to her and her family.
And try not to pay too much attention to anyone in this thread who states their (a)religious beliefs as fact.
I wouldn’t say you did anything wrong, START, but as others have pointed out, religion is a big ol’ can of worms, at least in this country. Even if the family did practice some religion, what you said still might have conflicted with their beliefs.
You said in your OP that this kid has been to your house before. If he visits again, spend a little time with him, playing video games or something. Just be a friend.
Here’s an example, based on my mom’s beliefs on the afterlife (since I have none of my own).
Imagine your kid went through something like this. I see him crying, and tell him that his family member will be reincarnated as one of their favorite animals, and will come to watch over him (one of my mom’s many beliefs).
If you were a strict Christian (like Patrick’s mom seems to be with her, er, not Christian beliefs), would you be okay with me telling your kid that reincarnation is What Happens After You Die? Probably not, see?
wow, Vol. I (most usernames are easier to shorten down…) you really are a dick (that is unless you’re being very sarcastic and I’m being wooshed, but I meet lots of people online that are very serious about their very stupid opinions).
I know we live in a country with freedom of religion and choice of it, but the ‘average’, or at least assumption you have when meeting a random person is Christian.
In Start’s situation I don’t know what I’d do but I’m betting it’d be roughly what he did. Did he know they didn’t believe in heaven? Was he thinking “The kid is in a state of mourning, this is my chance to get him to God!”?
no, duh.
I don’t know what I believe about God myself, I’m in a state of “I don’t know.” but if I had a young kid crying next to me because he just lost his dad, I’d tell him the same as what the OP did.
Sorry that happened, Start, it doesn’t change anything but I think you’re a good guy for trying to make someone who was in pain feel better.
if START had told the kid that at least he has good memories & pictures to remind him of his Dad, and that cheered the kid up, and then Mom accused START of trying to destroy the kid’s faith, and the kid said that the good memories were enough for him…
how many of the non-religious posters here would have congratulated START for being realistic & honest, and would have been bashing his religious-fanatic Mom?
I agree, clayton_e. I’m an agnostic-leaning-towards-athiest, and I don’t see anything wrong with what th OP did. Maybe he could have prefaced it with “In my religion…” etc. HAD HE KNOWN.
The kid is 7 years old and lost his father. It’s not time to sternly reinforce the parents’ belief system, it’s time to comfort the child. I think that the mother, however, was probably acting out of shock/grief.
Some athiests are even more rabidly evangelical and dogmatic than hardcore Christian fundamentalists; I fail to see that as a useful alternative to believing in God.
I think that when you’re dealing with people whose faith you are unsure of, taking the secular position (in this case, the stuff about memories/pictures/etc) is best and most polite. Would anyone actually be offended by someone saying “he’ll be alive through your memories”? I could see if someone was put off by a non-religious person saying “well, he’s maggot food now” but the memory thing is pretty non-offensive and inclusive of all people, unlike sayings about Heaven or reincarnation.
Really, though, in a situation like this it’s best not to say anything at all.
You should have kept your mouth shut, START. How old are you anyway? If more than a teenager you should know that you don’t start mouthing Christian platitudes to a 7-year-old whose religious background you don’t know. You may have opened a real can of worms in that family, causing a conflict a small child or his remaining parent shouldn’t have to deal with. Grief is personal. Anything beyond, “I know, kid. But you will feel better with time.” is just none of your damn business.
You were meddling where you had no business. And what other people believe is not “crap” just because it doesn’t coincide with your narrow view. Again I ask, how old are you. If you are an adult you should have better sense or at least greater respect for your neighbors. If you are thirteen (the minimum age for Dopers, if I recall) you may be forgiven the indescretion . . . after a good spanking.
I really don’t think this has to become a religious/anti-religious pissing match. START tried to be nice in the way he knew, and the mother objected in a perfectly reasonable way, given that she just lost a husband. She knew he was just trying to help, and said so, but fundamentally it’s her responsibility how her kids are helped through their loss, and this would be just as true in your situation as in the real one. There’s no right or wrong side here, just two people trying to help, one of whom gets the final say by dint of being the mother. And I don’t think it’s obvious that a comforting lie (from the mother’s perspective) is better than dealing with the unpleasant truth. What’s the mother supposed to say when the child quizzes her about whether she believes in Heaven? How long does she have to keep pretending that Heaven is real? And when the kid finds out Heaven’s tied up with God, and Jesus, what does she say? “Sorry kids, I was just letting you think that to make you feel better - I don’t believe in Heaven and all that stuff at all”?
Basically, I agree with cazzle; the mother is between a rock and a hard place through no real fault of anyone’s (someone was surely going to mention Heaven at some point), and chose the route whereby she doesn’t have to lie to her children about her beliefs. I don’t think anyone can fault her, but then I don’t really think anyone can fault START either.