Theological study: why does it matter?

Great Debates
1

Despite the fact that, in recent years, I have become less religious (and by that, I mean I’ve pretty much stopped going to church), I still actively read about theology. Strangely enough, becoming less religious (or less devout, or whatever), becoming more apathetic about theology/religion/etc, has coincided with my being more curious about theology and wanting to research it more, to learn more about it.

Here are a few things I’ve postulated:
[ul][li]Empirically speaking, the only way we can gain unambiguous, irrefutable knowledge of God is if He gives it to us personally, by showing himself to us, communicating with us, etc.[/li][li]God doesn’t seem to do that a whole lot lately.[/li][li]Everything we think we know about God might be wrong.[/li][li]God might not care about us, whether we believe in Him, worship Him, etc.[/li][li]What we think of as “good” may not coincide at all with what God wants or expects us to do. He might not even care.[/ul][/li]…and so on. And of course, there are these other things:

[ul][li]Some religions teach that if you aren’t a member of them, you’ll go to hell.[/li][li]So, if there is a hell, it’s possible that God’s criteria for determining who goes to heaven and hell are unknowable, unfathomable, or completely different from what we’d expect.[/li][li]If we assume that the nature of God and things about him aren’t knowable or are incomprehensible by us, then it may not matter whether or not we’re religious, what theological stance we have, whether or not we’re “good” people, etc.[/li][li]If God doesn’t exist, it doesn’t really matter anyway.[/li][li]If God is vindictive and smites those who question him, are all persons with a shroud of intelligence doomed to hell?[/ul][/li]…and so on (again).

Now then, assuming that I have essentially determined that it’s possible (and likely) that we can’t fully understand or know about God, and that therefore it’s possible that no amount of theological study or religious devotion can guarantee God’s favor…why am I so curious? Why do so many people spend so much time wondering about these things? What is it that drives us to try to understand the unfathomable?

2

You have made a very simple issue quite complicated. There is no God (outside of God as a concept that equates to, “all of us” or, “all of existance” or, “the sum of everything.” Otherwise, it gets into myth, fairy-tale and legend.

Simplify.

Don’t worry.

Theological study is intersting because we can learn much about why humans invent the thoughts they do to make up for their frightening ignorance.

That is fascinating… and so we look on…

3

You don’t know that.

4

True-- yes you are so right. But that doesn’t make your God real. It only means that no one can be any more sure that there is no “God” than they can be sure that there is no Tooth Fairy. I could be wrong, but lets face it… the odds are with me.

5

I don’t think so. What are you basing that on?

I know that I’m somewhat biased, but I don’t think anyone isn’t. First of all, I dislike the term “my (or your) God”. I admit I don’t know if God exists or not, but I think if God exists, there’s probably only one. So calling it “my God” or “your God” is wrong…there are no personal pronouns to describe God, because I don’t think anyone “has” or “owns” God. And it seems more likely to me that this world is the work of a creator, not an accident.

6

Ok-- just this and then I’ll leave it at that.

Because there are MANY other threads on the SDMB that deal with the whole God/No God question.

Here it is: “Probably only one”? Why would you say that? What about the Romans and the Greeks and the Norse and the Hindu and etc, etc…?

Dude— flush that Western “Man is the Creator’s special pet” shit and join reality.

That is all. I go to sleep now. I am only an animal and I need to sleep. I am not some special heavenly creation that lives next to god.

I am, like you, a thinking (for now) sack of flesh that is soon to die and rot.

Feed the worms.

Goodnight.

7

Some Hindus have told me that their “multiple gods” are actually different incarnations of one God - not unlike the traditional JudeoChristian idea. Just as I don’t know for sure that God exists, I don’t know for sure that there’s only one God. It seems more likely to my (barely) educated mind that if there’s a creator, there’s only one. I suppose I could discuss this further, but I imagine you don’t give a shit anyway, so it’s hardly worth taking my time to articulate it.

First of all, I don’t necessarily subscribe to your “Man is the Creator’s special pet” thing. I’m not a typical Charlie Church, I’m not ignorant, nor have I confined myself to having a closed mind about theology by refusing to consider the possibility that I’m wrong or whatever, and I certainly don’t think I’m “next to God” or anything like that. I have arrived at the conclusion that many people’s conceptions of God may be incorrect. But I have yet to come to a conclusion that it’s more likely that God doesn’t exist than that he does. I’m not saying that the universe, the state of things as they are, proves God exists - that’s logically unsound and naive. I am saying, though, that it seems more likely than not. The cosmological argument seems to me to hold more water than its objections. I consider myself a reasonably logical and rational person, and I hope you weren’t insinuating that because I’m not an atheist, that I’m not logical or rational or that I’m deluded, because I’m not.

I didn’t start this thread to debate the existence of God. I’m not convinced either way obviously, but I probably am not going to be convinced by any of you, either. I started this thread because I was hoping for some insight as to why people like me are so curious about things we can’t know or understand fully. That’s what I’d like to talk about in here, if it’s okay with you and everyone else.

8

Well, that’s what this whole message board is devoted to, isn’t it? We’re all curious creatures, we humans. Some of us want to know why electricity works, some of us want to know why certain words move us, some of us want to know why certain people behave as asshats. Theology is just one more “why” we can think about and try to figure out. It’s especially appealing to me, because there is no end to the contemplation. There’s no moment when I can say “A-HA! That’s it!” Well, maybe there was for Jesus, Buddha or Muhammed, or some of the Ascended Masters, but I don’t anticipate being one of those this lifetime!

Perhaps we’re curious because we’re wired that way by natural selection. Curious humans invented shelter, fire, and working in groups. They survived better to procreate. Then the more curious of this bunch figured out that bashing rocks together makes them flake off in sharp wedges, and so were able to cut meat and dry it, so it wouldn’t be wasted. Better food, better survivial, better reproduction. And so on.

Perhaps we’re curious because God made us so. He wants to test our faith and love for him by making us curious but then giving us forbidden fruit.

Perhaps Creator is manipulating us through our curiosity, sending us messages from the Ancestors.

My mind is constantly examining questions about God/dess/es and what I think about that. Sometimes, I think the Divine is all energy and matter discovered and not discovered by science, sometimes, I think there are literal and discrete divine entities, sometimes I think it’s all a metaphor we humans create to better understand our own psychological processes, sometimes I think it’s all shite and mental masturbation. Sometimes, I think God is in the details, and sometimes I think He’s a clockmaker who started things moving and then went away. Sometimes I think all those at once, which is when things get really interesting in my cranium.

The thing is, I can entertain and study each one of these ideas for a lifetime, and never, ever be done. And no one can really tell me with absolute certainty (enough certainty to convince me, anyway) that I’m wrong. That they disagree with me, sure. But that I’m wrong? Nope.

For what it’s worth, I only accept three of the assumptions stated in the OP:

But I’ve drawn a different conclusion from them that it seems you have. I’ve concluded that, until I recieve a Divine Memo to the contrary, I can worship/contemplate/think in any way that works for me and doesn’t harm others. I’ve gotten a few poorly traced Memoes which I think may be Divine in nature, and all of them agreed with this. So I have to go with what works.

9

Great question.

I have been wondering about a similar question myself and I wrote down some thoughts a while ago, which I am pasting below.

I should note that I’m not religious and I don’t believe in the existence or non-existence of God. I’m a “I have no clue what’s going on” kind of guy who, in the absence of other evidence goes with what science says about the world.

However, I often get the “very unscientific” feeling that this world is not “all there is”, and I believe many other people have this feeling (Nietzsche also mentions something similar in Beyond Good and Evil), and I wondered, if there is a God, why would people be getting this feeling?

Of course, one possibility is that this feeling is an illusion. The other possibility is that it is not an illusion. The following addresses the latter possibility.

Does “god” want us to know the true nature of reality?

If not, why do so many people come to the understanding
that this world is not “real” or is not “all there is”.
Why would our brain have the capacity to “detect” just the
unreality of this world, and nothing further?

It would make sense, if god did not want us to figure out
the true nature of things, to make our brain incapable
of detecting the unreality of this world.

So, since so many humans do end up detecting this
unreality, two options exist
(1) It’s a “bug”: i.e. god did not mean it to be this
way, or, he simply could not make a brain that
does everything our brain does while preventing
it from detecting the unreality of the world.

(2) It’s a “feature”: i.e. god wants people, under the
right circumstances to realize the unreality of this
world

If (1) is true, then, God wants to hide the true nature of
things and either:
(a) is successful:
all religions and philosophical theories to date
are wrong, i.e. they can be considered intellectual
traps for people to fall into and feel that they have
found the “truth”
OR
(b) is not successful:
just as the ability of the brain to realize the unreality
of this world could not be avoided, if the brain was to
be able to do all the things it is currently able to do,
then so too, the ability of the brain to figure it all out
may be an undesired artifact of the brain
However, maybe god doesn’t mind too much since very few people
will actually figure it all out, and as is often the case
with such revelations, they cannot be conveyed to the masses.
This scenario does have a very interesting connection with
the Bible story of Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge.
That is, the story implies that there are certain things
that we can do to “figure it all out”, but god does
not want us to do so, and actually punishes Adam and Eve
for trying.

If (2) is true, i.e. god wants people, under the
right circumstances to realize the unreality of this
world then, either:
(a) that’s all god wants us to figure out, since
it is enough to put in us a “fear” or “need”
or simple realization of the existence of god.
OR
(b) this realization is just the beginning and
god wants us to eventually figure it all out
(while still alive)

Maybe, just maybe, (2)(b) is the case.
It would be strange, and a torture, for people to have the
ability to figure out the unreality of the world, but never
be able to know more than that.

10

Firstly I have to say such blatant and unfounded opinions (which also were somewhat off topic and inflammatory) as expressed by I Love Me, Vol. I add nothing to great debates and nothing to the intellect of anyone. In fact I’d say we’re all worse off having to read through things which serve no purpose, as blanket “god doesn’t exist”, “god does exist” arguments cannot be proven or disproven, they are both nearly unassailable using standard conventions of arguing.

As to why theological study is important, think about it like you would legal study.

The Constitution say we have a right to freedom of speech. This right is argued to exist before it was codified, as a natural right. It is very true that a right to free speech existed before it was codified. While in many countries it was never written down that you could write what you want within reason, throughout the 18th century most people obviously engaged in such behavior.

Rules on writing/speaking about public figures were stricted but to just carpet bomb freedom of speech and say you can’t say this you can say that et cetera would have been very uncommon in a lot of places where freedom of speech hadn’t been codified.

So, like a sociologist would say there is nothing that is “natural.” Laws for example are created bya society, simple as that. And there is no natural order or natural progression to it, every society will create different laws differently, and there is no such thing as a universal law that all societies throughout history saw fit to enact.

So, the law is just a social construct, it doesn’t exist naturally like rocks, chemcial processes et cetera. People study it to understand how society works, and understand some of the rules binding society. Lawyers study it so they can become professionally acquainted with the law.

So the study of theology helps us understand another social construct, religion. Now, I’m a Christian and I’m not saying we invented god. But God gave us free will, and that allows us to interpret his word in many ways, to develop many different ways to worship him. So it is that arguments arise, which way is correct, what was really being said et cetera. So a theologist can study religion and develop and educated familiarity with the historical development of religious rules, ceremonies et cetera. And by doing so gain a greater understanding of a social construct, that being organized religion.

Now, religion doesn’t have the same societal impact as the law, as religion doesn’t have legitimacy to use force these days. But it’s still an important social construct and one that you can certainly benefit from studying.

11

I do not believe in the existence of God and never did. I will never argue the point with anyone who is search for the meaning of life or why humans believe they are creatures of God. If anyone feels the need to lean on the words of others or feel they are unable to make a moral code on their own, then go to church.

The good thing about churches is that they often band together to help others in need. I have found that many organizations like the Red Cross also take on larger more aggressive actions to keep people safe during disasters. I’ve been a member for over 25 years and trained in disaster team work and love it. I work with a homeless shelter for teens and help handicapped people in my community. I don’t need God to direct me in this. I feel I have been lucky in my life and have often had the skills to help others in trouble.

I’ve been questioned about my charity work and how can I do it without God. These questions are made by fools who haven’t thought out their own place in the universe. We can show people that God is not necessary for our life choices and sometimes I feel we are far more moral than somebody who learns laws rather than using their own rational minds.

Having a member of the religious right in the white house has made religion a strong motivation for many but tends to annoy the hell out of Atheists. I never quite buy that Bush’s motivations come from his heart but his fear of God. He also brought the subject of religion into all conversations which is a shame because of the number of Atheists and Agnostics who would rather he didn’t.

12

I think it’s fairly certain that we–very finite and mortal beings with a very limited ability to find things out or see the whole picture–cannot hope to fully understand or comprehend God. However, I don’t think that it follows that we cannot hope to ‘gain His favor’ through study, or that trying to learn about Him is a hopeless venture.

If God exists (as I believe He does), and if, as we hope, he is benevolent (also something I believe), then it is reasonable to think that any effort we make to understand His nature and come to know Him is both acceptable and encouraged. I think he takes us as we are and helps us go on from there. It may also be reasonable to think that we will not be punished for using the minds we were given as best we can; if God created us with intelligence, then he probably means for us to use it to learn about Him. (OTOH, if God is not interested or benevolent, then it won’t matter much anyway, and we’re probably out of luck no matter what we do; but I don’t think that is true, since it does not mesh with my own experience.)

You say that God does not seem to communicate much with people any more, but how can you know that? Many people feel that they have felt God’s influence in their lives. Do you know that their personal experiences are invalid?

There is no reason not to try to find out what people have said about God in the past. Why reinvent the wheel? People–many of them more intelligent than I am–have been trying to understand God for quite some time, and some of them probably came up with some pretty good ideas, many of which I would not think of. Many of those ideas are ones which I might not agree with, but the more I find out, the more I’ll be able to judge, as best I can, what is closest to the truth.

Why do we feel the need to understand the things of God? I think a religious person might say that we are made in His image, and we are designed to want to learn and grow; some might say that we have a spark of the divine that reaches out to God. The rationalist (not that religion is necessarily irrational, mind you, for I don’t believe it is) might say that our brains are hardwired for religious experience, that we are born with a great psychological need to make sense out of our world. I happen to think that both are true, and it’s two ways of saying almost the same thing.

So, to me, learning about God and what He wants of me is the most important thing I can do with my life. To another, learning about religious thought may be an interesting exercise in studying history and psychology. Either way, there’s not a lot of downside to trying to find things out.

13

All that I wish to say simply combines the words of Martin Hyde and dangermom.

If there is a god, it is important that we try to learn all we can about this god, what this god desires and provides and has done and will do and everything possible about the character and being of this god.

Also, it helps us understand our fellow human beings to study theology. It helps us understand how society has interacted around and studied religion.

So if you are a theist, you want to know all about God in order to please Him and learn about your fellow man. If you are not a theist, the study of theology is an interesting study in how societies happen to organize themselves around the existence of deities and how that influences human behavior, etc.

Either way, it’s also one more in a line of diverse interests that human beings have.

14

Yeah, it’s like a friend of mine who is a Ph.D. English professor, his big “hobby” is studying folklores, myths et cetera, and he teaches several classes on those subjects. He certainly knows none of them ever happened, or that they are only loosely based on reality but it doesn’t mean he can’t find enjoyment, and valuable insights into life and society itself by studying them.

15

Ah, now this is more like it. This is what I was hoping to see, not some inflammatory comdemning rhetoric derailing this thread. Good points, all of you. :slight_smile:

16

Do you exist? Sure, you think you do but can you PROVE it? By the same token, “God does exist” is provable to exactly the same degree: all God has to do is teleport down here with a long scraggly beard, turn some water into wine, mending kicked puppybones, world peace for all and all that. At that point we would be hard-pressed to argue that there isn’t a God. No moreso than we can argue that you or I don’t exist.

So, where is He?

Now, this is not to say that the supernatural does not exist. Just for any particular supernatural phenomenon, not having any evidence for its existence proves it doesn’t exist to the same degree that having no evidence for the existence of Hans Beebleschiessweiner in Fucking Austria “proves” he doesn’t exist. It does no such thing, of course, but supernatural phenomenon aren’t special in that regard.

17

Of course we can’t prove it, just as the atheist can’t prove that God doesn’t exist. That’s part of the innate beauty of this argument. :smiley:

Now then, suppose God did come down here and dazzle us, and prove He existed. Then, all the people who had faith in God would no longer need it. If God’s plan is for those of us who want to find him to be successful, then there would be no reason - everyone would know God existed, no one would have to “have faith”.

It doesn’t prove anything, of course, but it offers a good reason why God probably doesn’t come down here and just settle it once and for all.

18

Well, if God doesn’t exist it is most important that any faith (or lack of faith) that people hold does not cause harm to themselves or others. Since everyone else is all that there is to existance in the case of No God.

If God exists, then faith in God may be important. But we Humans have come up with many often incompattable ways of having Faith in God, and there is no sign that God has made one of these methods obviously correct and the others obviously wrong. So God does not seem to have provided a specific method by which we should have faith in God. All religions have holes in their logic, internal schisms, and missing information that make them not obviously correct. How do we know that God wants us to have Faith in God? And if God requires that Faith, hoe does God make that requirement known to humans.

It is clear that if God does exist then he/she/it is in hiding. Only appearing to few people, and often in ways that appear similar to dellusion. It is argued that appearing more obviously would deny faith, true, but also hiding as he/she/it does makes faith seem like dellusion.
If God exists and created mankind, then God gave us the minds to think with that can see the evidence (possibly placed there by God) for evolution, the God knows that we humans must read that evidence and say with the certainty of our own knowledge that Humans evolved from Apes. To believe otherwise is to deny the powers of deduction that God gave us when looking at the evidence that God put there. God did not design us so bullable that we should believe the account in any one of dozens of ancient creation texts mostly contradictory to each other all written be fallable humans against the much greater evidence of fossils.

So, if God exists, then lack of faith exists because God wants such lack of faith to exist.