Why the hostility towards Passive/Aggresives?

[BwanaBob]

Maybe I'm one and don't realize it, but I see/hear so many people rant against passive/aggressive people. These same people never seem to rant against plain old "aggressive" people. Why is this? Is being passive aggressive perceived as something worse than "outright aggressive"? I just don't get it.

Someone please enlighten me.

[Trunk]

The alternative to passive/agressive is not "aggressive".

The alternative to passive/aggressive is, well, let's say. . ."forthright".

[norinew]

Well, obviously, I can't give you anyone's take on it but mine, but this is IMHO, so. . .just plain flat out agressiveness doesn't bother me unless it's obnoxious. That's because agression is honest. Someone is upfront about what they want, and is going for it. If one can manage to do that without being obnoxious, it's an admirable thing. Passive/agressiveness, OTOH, is dishonest and manipulative. The P/A will tell you whatever you want to hear, and then do what they feel like doing. The poet Peter McWilliams once wrote: "People who are afraid of inflicting pain are awfully painful to be around", and I agree. Passive/agressives don't want to inflict pain, but they want their way all the time. You can't have it both ways.

[susan_foster]

I think the confusion lies in the word aggressive. Aggression is usually recognizable - passive aggression is not something that you can point to a specific instance of something and say "He was acting passively aggressive towards me!".

Medline link Although Medline says that it is no longer recognized as an official diagnosis, it does seem to give a good explanation of the behavior.

I think it's the fact that the passive aggressive person is obstructing that causes the anger. If you're not going to do something that you promised to do, tell me, so I can ask someone else. If you can't do the job you were asked to do, maybe you should look for something else, and let the work that needs to be done get done.

Susan

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by norinew

Passive/agressiveness, OTOH, is dishonest and manipulative. The P/A will tell you whatever you want to hear, and then do what they feel like doing. The poet Peter McWilliams once wrote: "People who are afraid of inflicting pain are awfully painful to be around", and I agree. Passive/agressives don't want to inflict pain, but they want their way all the time. You can't have it both ways.

Can I get an Amen?!

But I disagree slightly with the poet. P/A people are not really afraid of inflicting pain. They are afraid of confrontation and, in my humble experiece, tend to be cowardly and outright deceitful about showing their true feelings/intentions.

To the OP: Do you have a different take on this? If so, just curious to hear your argument on it.

[norinew]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

P/A people are not really afraid of inflicting pain. They are afraid of confrontation and, in my humble experiece, tend to be cowardly and outright deceitful about showing their true feelings/intentions.

I think you're probably right about this. It's just that I love that line, and use any excuse I can to sneak it into a conversation.

Oh, and my apologies to all the pedants reading this and tearing their hair out over my consistent misspelling of the word "aggressive".

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by norinew

Passive/agressives don't want to inflict pain, but they want their way all the time. You can't have it both ways.

Fascinating. But to me the opposite would be "I want my way and I'll inflict pain if needed to get it." I would think such a person is more reprehensible.

After reading the medlink that susan_foster referenced I would have to say that I certainly have done passive/aggressive things in my life.

When I was 15 and worked in a McDonald's I was asked to "learn grill". To me grilling==cooking which I loathed and IMHO was the hardest task in the store. It also didn't pay any extra. I couldn't refuse (be openly aggressive) as I would have been shown the door. So I "tried" to be a grill-man, sucked at it, and was restored to my regular duties.

What would have been my option? Quit? Be fired? or "Mess up and stay employed?"

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Can I get an Amen?!

But I disagree slightly with the poet. P/A people are not really afraid of inflicting pain. They are afraid of confrontation and, in my humble experiece, tend to be cowardly and outright deceitful about showing their true feelings/intentions.

To the OP: Do you have a different take on this? If so, just curious to hear your argument on it.

You're probably right in that it was a fear of confrontation. But the caveat here was that I knew the inevitable outcome of the confrontation - being fired. So I took the "cowardly" P/A approach and let the manager decide I wasn't fit for the tough task. As far as I was concerned, no one got hurt, I got to keep my cushier position, customers didn't have to eat my horrible burgers (I do truly stink at cooking to this day), and the manager got to "try me out", and move on to a more competent worker.

[norinew]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

Fascinating. But to me the opposite would be "I want my way and I'll inflict pain if needed to get it." I would think such a person is more reprehensible.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that different people are P/A for different reasons. Undrlying it all is the desire to get their own way, of course, but while some may not give a damn who they hurt on the way, others don't want to see anyone hurt. So they can pretend that if they don't actually see the hurt, it doesn't exist. For instance, in my P/A days, my major reason is that my mother (who was really, really screwed up) taught me that, no matter what, I shouldn't make waves. So, the way to get what I wanted without making waves was passive aggression. I'm not defending my behavior: it was reprehensible. But it's simply not true that I didn't care if someone got hurt.

[Trunk]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

Fascinating. But to me the opposite would be "I want my way and I'll inflict pain if needed to get it." I would think such a person is more reprehensible.

You seem to want to believe that a person who acted passive/aggressively would otherwise acting aggressively if you took away their ability to be P/A.

Why don't you think that person would otherwise act passively?

Passive/aggressive indicates a degree of cowardice on the PA person. I think the defining characteristic is that the person is afraid of confrontation, and when they encouter a situation where they need to get something done, their instinct is to "avoid". We only put the "aggressive" part of it onto it as a way to indicated that they're actually atively trying to get something done in a passive manner.

It takes a certain quality to achieve the confrontation, a quality that the passive/aggressive person lacks. I think THAT would be their greatest hurdle to overcome.

[jackelope]

P/A behavior is a way of getting one's way without seeming pushy. Think of the stereotypical "Jewish mother" you hear jokes about:

Q. How many stereotypical Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb?

A. None. "No no, don't worry about me. I'll just sit here... [deep sigh] ...in the dark."

In other words, one gets one's way not by making one's wishes known (which is not always "inflicting pain," btw), but by acting pathetic and helpless in order to arouse people's sense of guilt to the point that they'll "volunteer" to do what one wants. The P/A person (a) gets their way, and (b) still gets to seem non-threatening.

I know quite a few people who fall into this category, including one who has made it her entire mode of communication. A mutual acquaintance refers to this person as "passive-ferocious."

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally Posted by Trunk

Passive/aggressive indicates a degree of cowardice on the PA person. I think the defining characteristic is that the person is afraid of confrontation, and when they encouter a situation where they need to get something done, their instinct is to "avoid". We only put the "aggressive" part of it onto it as a way to indicated that they're actually atively trying to get something done in a passive manner.

I couldn't have said it better.

[b]BwanaBob[/i], most posters have approached this from almost a clinical perspective. Let me give you a real life example of passive agressive behavior. Before I tell you this story, your experiences on the grill was not really passive agressive. This is passive agressive:

I was dating a girl for three years. She moved in with me. We lived together for awhile, but things weren't going so well. She grew up in England, but we were living in Alabama. Before Christmas, she told me that she was going to spend the Holidays with her parents. That was fine. The previous year we both spent the holidays with her parents and the year before that we spent them with mine. Transatlantic plane tickets ain't cheap so I said "I'll see you after New Years".

All this time I had been saving for a ring to ask her to marry me, but holding off buying it, because, well, things weren't going too well. Anywho, she was supposed to call me in early January about her flight back.

I never got the call.

I waited a few days thinking there was some snafu.,

Nothing.

So I looked through the drawers in our bedroom and realized that she had taken all her summer clothes. "Why does she need her swimsuits for Christmas in Stratford upon Avon?", I thought. I called her parents, but they seemed awfull cagey. Eventually, I got in touch with her through some of her friends, and you know what? She never planned to come back.

She avoided all confrontation with me and just left. She masked her departure in a very believable lie. She had no intention of even giving me a phone call or even a "Dear John" letter. Nothing. Nada. That hurt.

I felt like she didn't respect me, and that she never had respected me. I know now that she did, and that she truly loved me once. Relationships, and love, can die, but I would have far prefered a "Fuck you, Monkey, I'm leaving" than a disingenuous "Love you, see you when I get back".

That's why people can't stand passive aggresives.

I should have seen it coming. I'd ask her, "what's wrong, baby" and she'd reply "nothing", or.... even worse "if you don't know, I won't tell you". That type of comment put the ball in my court, but I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't know what's wrong in the first place.

The passive agressive inflicts pain by being too passive and heaping all the problems on the other.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

You're probably right in that it was a fear of confrontation. But the caveat here was that I knew the inevitable outcome of the confrontation - being fired. So I took the "cowardly" P/A approach and let the manager decide I wasn't fit for the tough task. As far as I was concerned, no one got hurt, I got to keep my cushier position, customers didn't have to eat my horrible burgers (I do truly stink at cooking to this day), and the manager got to "try me out", and move on to a more competent worker.

I guess it worked out well for you and in the end you got what you really wanted.

However, I suggest that had you been up front with the manager and expressed to him that you felt you would be more effective in your current (or some other) roll but in the interest of being a team player, you'd try the grill gig for an agreed period of time, then that would have been a more direct and honest way to go. It would have yielded similar results for you and probably gained you some personal integrity and respect points (with the right manager, of course). But those are just my thoughts on it. YMMV.

[norinew]

Originally Posted by A Monkey With A Gun

even worse "if you don't know, I won't tell you".

Oh, this is the worst! My mom was famous for this kind of thing. Whatever she was saying, we were supposed to divine (through our psychic powers, I guess ) what she meant by it. For instance, I might say "Mom, can I spend the night at Dianne's house?" and she'd say "Fine", leaving me to figure out whether she meant "Fine" or "Go ahead, but I don't really want you to, and will pout for three days after you come back".

Some people, upon getting to know my husband, think he's an asshole. But you know what? He's not. It's just that he doesn't have a passive/aggressive bone ini his body, plus he lacks tact. So, if I say to him, "Do you mind fixing dinner for the kids? I'm going to be gone longer than I thought", he'll either say "I'd rather not, why don't we order pizza", or he'll say "Fine", which, coming from him, always means "Fine". I like it that way.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by norinew

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that different people are P/A for different reasons. Undrlying it all is the desire to get their own way, of course, but while some may not give a damn who they hurt on the way, others don't want to see anyone hurt. So they can pretend that if they don't actually see the hurt, it doesn't exist. For instance, in my P/A days, my major reason is that my mother (who was really, really screwed up) taught me that, no matter what, I shouldn't make waves. So, the way to get what I wanted without making waves was passive aggression. I'm not defending my behavior: it was reprehensible. But it's simply not true that I didn't care if someone got hurt.

I'm not calling you out on the carpet... it seems clear to me that you've learned from your experiences and moved on.

BUT.... It seems to me that intellectually you were very aware that you were hurting people with your P/A behaviour because you recognize it as being "reprehensible". So although I can't accuse you of being indifferent to people's feelings, I think it's fair to say that your feelings/approach/goal was more important to you than their feelings of hurt. Again, not requiring you to put other people's feelings before your own, just suggeting that there is a better way to manage the process without being P/A.

[norinew]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

It seems to me that intellectually you were very aware that you were hurting people with your P/A behaviour because you recognize it as being "reprehensible".

I probably should have been more clear in this post. I certainly didn't recognize the behavior as reprehensible at the time. At the time I actually looked at it as a survival skill, if you will. It is only in retrospect that I think of it as reprehensible.

Children do, indeed, learn what they live and I was playing the games my mother taught me. However, as I became more mature and more cognizant of the world around me, I learned a more honorable way of doing things.

[jackelope]

Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun

I would have far prefered a "Fuck you, Monkey, I'm leaving"

Next time I break up with someone, I'm totally gonna say this.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally Posted by norinew

......... and she'd say "Fine", leaving me to figure out whether she meant "Fine" or "Go ahead, but I don't really want you to, and will pout for three days after you come back".

Grrr..... arr..... uggh

I know exactly what's that like.

Originally Posted by norinew

Some people, upon getting to know my husband, think he's an asshole. But you know what? He's not. It's just that he doesn't have a passive/aggressive bone in his body, plus he lacks tact. So, if I say to him, "Do you mind fixing dinner for the kids? I'm going to be gone longer than I thought", he'll either say "I'd rather not, why don't we order pizza", or he'll say "Fine", which, coming from him, always means "Fine". I like it that way.

Does your husband have a sister?

[norinew]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Does your husband have a sister?

Why, yes, yes he does. However, she's fifty-one, been married for 25 years and has two grown kids. However, she's very nice, and attractive, too. If you're still interested, I'll let her know.

[AmericanMaid]

Another aspect of Passive Aggression is that it can easily morph into Emotional Abuse. There's a certain kind of abuse called "gaslighting" where the abuser can make the victim doubt their memory and sanity. If you call someone out on passive aggressive behavior, you usually get "What are you talking about? I only said X." If this happens over and over, it gets to you.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by AmericanMaid

Another aspect of Passive Aggression is that it can easily morph into Emotional Abuse. There's a certain kind of abuse called "gaslighting" where the abuser can make the victim doubt their memory and sanity. If you call someone out on passive aggressive behavior, you usually get "What are you talking about? I only said X." If this happens over and over, it gets to you.

You must know my ex.


<sigh> It took me almost a year after moving out to feel completely sane again.

[AmericanMaid]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

You must know my ex.


<sigh> It took me almost a year after moving out to feel completely sane again.

Sweety, I grew up with that bullshit so I understand. You and me, two sane survivors

[jackelope]

Originally Posted by AmericanMaid

Another aspect of Passive Aggression is that it can easily morph into Emotional Abuse. There's a certain kind of abuse called "gaslighting" where the abuser can make the victim doubt their memory and sanity. If you call someone out on passive aggressive behavior, you usually get "What are you talking about? I only said X." If this happens over and over, it gets to you.

I've never heard the term "gaslighting" before; I assume it's a reference to the film Gaslight?

Creepy movie. And a great reference.

[msmith537]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

Maybe I'm one and don't realize it, but I see/hear so many people rant against passive/aggressive people. These same people never seem to rant against plain old "aggressive" people. Why is this? Is being passive aggressive perceived as something worse than "outright aggressive"? I just don't get it.

I think you KNOW why...

[msmith537]

Passive agressives don't care about whether they inflict pain or not. They care about having to deal with other people hassling them. In the P/As ideal world, they basically go on being considered "nice guys" and other people simply forget to follow up with them or just don't ask them to do anything again.

Problem is that you can't trust them. They say the'll do something but when the time comes "oh something came up" or they just don't show up. I have a friend (well ex-friend I guess since I don't really associate with him anymore) who apparantly does this constantly. He said he was going in on a summer house with some guys and basically never paid them. When the season started they finally were able to confront him about it and he basically responded that he couldn't do it and didn't want to "disappoint" anyone. Do you think he was trying to spare people's feelings or just avoid conflict as long as possible? Think about how asinine that is to instead of telling them in a reasonible amount of time so they can find a replacement to simply ignore them.

People hate P/As because really their bahavior indicates to others that they think you are so insignificant, you don't even deserve to be acknowledged.

[AmericanMaid]

Originally Posted by jackelope

I've never heard the term "gaslighting" before; I assume it's a reference to the film Gaslight?

Creepy movie. And a great reference.

The term does come from that movie.

[Carol the Impaler]

Originally Posted by msmith537

People hate P/As because really their bahavior indicates to others that they think you are so insignificant, you don't even deserve to be acknowledged.

That, because of what they do, the responsibility for their decisions/actions/lack of action gets shifted to others instead of lying at their feet, where it belongs. I don't think that it's that they want to avoid causing pain, they just want to avoid being clearly responsible for it.

[Carol the Impaler]

Crickey. The one time I don't preview..

I meant "That, and because of what they do... "

[MsRobyn]

The Master speaks.

Robin

[Giraffe]

I think extremely passive aggressive people (like my mother-in-law) don't do it just to avoid pain or confrontation -- they do it because it works and lets them get their way. It's like guerilla warfare. You avoid ever engaging directly, but instead snipe from the shadows until you wear down the opposition. It's annoying but effective (which is even more annoying).

[Nametag]

I think many of those posting in this thread are confusing passive aggression with simple passivity, deceitfulness, or irresponsibility. PA is, first and foremost, aggression. The classic examples are those soldiers identified in Cecil's article, who refused orders or quietly disobeyed orders due to hostility against the order-giver (or, in some cases, transferred hostility against some traumatic personage). If you're just a lazy pain-in-the-ass, or even a tight-lipped martyr, that's not PA.

[AsecretK]

Originally Posted by jackelope

In other words, one gets one's way not by making one's wishes known (which is not always "inflicting pain," btw), but by acting pathetic and helpless in order to arouse people's sense of guilt to the point that they'll "volunteer" to do what one wants. The P/A person (a) gets their way, and (b) still gets to seem non-threatening.

This is my mother. She does this with just about everything. Instead of just asking she lays hints and then waits for someone to do something. If they just don't get the hint or choose to ignore it then she gets pathetic....

Mom: I don't want to bother you but are you going to stop at the store after work ?
Me: No, I had not planned on it
Mom: oh okay, well never mind

Later that evening...

"I would have asked you to buy me some milk and bread on the way home but since I asked if you were going to the store and you said no I didn't want to bother you"

Like just ask. I will stop and get anything you need.

or she gets out the guilt trip...

"I asked if you were going to the store yesterday and you said no but now you went today and I would have "assumed" since I asked yesterday that you knew I wanted something and you could have called to let me know you were going"

Again, why not just ask instead of laying hints or getting mad after the fact cause you did not just ask.



I do not play this game with her anymore. If she asks I will help in any way I can but if she simply lays hints I ignore them until she actually asks. I played the "guilt" thing for way to long.

I found this on the internet awhile back. I do not have the cite but it sure hit home when I read it...

"Do not use manipulation on your children. God gave you authority over your child, use it with wisdom, kindness, and directness. Don't force excessive or false guilt on your child. Do not teach them to become passive/aggressive in the way they deal with others. Be straightforward and kind, and teach them to be the same."


About a year ago I started to see myself falling into this same pattern with my children and friends. I am reversing this attitude. If I need something or want something I just ask instead of waiting for people to offer or if something bothers me I bring it up right away instead hoping someone will notice that something is bothering me, need something or want something done.

I also am trying to teach the same to my children. If you want or need anything to ask. I can not read minds. If you seem upset I will ask what is wrong but if you don't tell me then I can't help.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally Posted by nametag

I think many of those posting in this thread are confusing passive aggression with simple passivity, deceitfulness, or irresponsibility. PA is, first and foremost, aggression.

And I think one poster in this thread is confusing connotation with denotation.


::chuckle:: I'm well aware of the irony of being connotatively passive aggresive by addressing Nametag in the third person

[kunilou]

Originally Posted by BwanaBob

When I was 15 and worked in a McDonald's I was asked to "learn grill". To me grilling==cooking which I loathed and IMHO was the hardest task in the store. It also didn't pay any extra. I couldn't refuse (be openly aggressive) as I would have been shown the door. So I "tried" to be a grill-man, sucked at it, and was restored to my regular duties.

What would have been my option? Quit? Be fired? or "Mess up and stay employed?"

You would have had two options:

1) Suck it up, accept that jobs carry lousy tasks with them and learn how to grill, just like everyone was expected to do, instead of figuring out a way to dump the hardest task in the store onto your co-workers.

2) Find another job.

[Little Nemo]

When I was 15 and worked in a McDonald's I was asked to "learn grill". To me grilling==cooking which I loathed and IMHO was the hardest task in the store. It also didn't pay any extra. I couldn't refuse (be openly aggressive) as I would have been shown the door. So I "tried" to be a grill-man, sucked at it, and was restored to my regular duties.

What would have been my option? Quit? Be fired? or "Mess up and stay employed?"

I think most true examples of passive aggressiveness requires an emotional connection between the two parties involved. It's this emotional element that fules the situation. In your case, I assume there was no such emotional element - you and your boss both had rational but conflicting goals, you saw that a direct approach would not achieve your goal, so you used an indirect approach.

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by kunilou

You would have had two options:

1) Suck it up, accept that jobs carry lousy tasks with them and learn how to grill, just like everyone was expected to do, instead of figuring out a way to dump the hardest task in the store onto your co-workers.


2) Find another job.

1) No, everyone was not expected to do grill - they needed X amount of grill men (girls were not allowed back then). Only if a grillman quit did they try to get someone from the ranks. So it was not a question of dumping work on all of my co-workers. I should add that the next guy they tried loved to grill, so everyone was happy.

2) Yeah, I listed quit as one of my options.

[BwanaBob]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I think most true examples of passive aggressiveness requires an emotional connection between the two parties involved. It's this emotional element that fules the situation. In your case, I assume there was no such emotional element - you and your boss both had rational but conflicting goals, you saw that a direct approach would not achieve your goal, so you used an indirect approach.

You would be correct. Although this took place in 1976, I remember it quite well; there was no real emotional element.

[Guinastasia]

Because at least if someone is outright aggressive, I can stand up to them. When someone is passive agressive, they're being sneaky and manipulative, and sometimes it's really hard to nail them on it.