No, you're not the biggest victim here. Not by a long shot.

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread about suicide, Ruby said:

Um, NO. Fuck NO.

There is almost nothing I hate more than when suicide “survivors” turn around the death and make themselves out to be the “real” victims. It is fucking self-centered and so obviously ignorant of the reality of mental illness. Boo fucking hoo, you have unanswered questions. Like that really compares to feeling your own mind imploding on you. Like that really compares to feeling like such a shitstain on the collective ass of society that you manage to override millions of years of evolution to “self-slaughter.” Do you have any idea of how strong the compulsion to self-destruction is once it surfaces, how fundamentally it warps and shifts your own version of reality, just how fucking out of your mind you have to be to consider it as an attractive option? No, of course not. Because it’s ALL ABOUT YOU. You’re the victim, you’re the one who suffers, they’re just a “self-murderer” who probably just committed suicide to wreck your life! How dare they make you feel pain! Why, if they weren’t dead you’d like to wring their neck yourself!

And for the record, yes, I have known people who have both attempted and committed suicide, and while I feel bad for the family’s loss in the cases where the person “succeeded” I never forgot that the true victim is the person whose mind was so compromised that they felt forced to take their own life. Would you say that the true victim of cancer is the cancer victim’s family? What about murder? Yeah, there are repercussions for survivors but there’s no greater “repercussion” than BEING DEAD.

Don’t fucking blame the victim. You’re just fucking lucky you didn’t have to live in their reality. Do any of you “survivors” honestly think it is harder to live as a relative or friend of a suicide victim than to live with a chronic and incurable mental illness?

You are not the victim. THEY ARE. Get it straight.

2

Can’t say as I agree with a single thing you’ve said here. I know a family where the father committed suicide while he still had three young children. Twenty years later, one of the kids is now dead, the other heavily medicated, and the third serving a lengthy prison sentence for drug trafficing. The mother is a compulsive hoarder who can barely navigate her own home, it’s so full of crap she doesn’t need, and she’s far and away the most functional of the entire family. The dad’s sucide absolutely destroyed everyone in his family. Whatever he was going through, there’s absolutely no way it can compare to the damage he dealt to his loved ones when he took his own life. No way in hell. Which isn’t to say I don’t feel sympathy for the guy. I do. But that in no way absolves him for the repurcussions of his actions.

I also think you’re vastly over-estimating our natural aversion to “self-slaughter.” It ain’t really all that strong.

3

Can’t say as I agree with a single thing you’ve said here. I know a family where the father committed suicide while he still had three young children. Twenty years later, one of the kids is now dead, the other heavily medicated, and the third serving a lengthy prison sentence for drug trafficing. The mother is a compulsive hoarder who can barely navigate her own home, it’s so full of crap she doesn’t need, and she’s far and away the most functional of the entire family. The dad’s sucide absolutely destroyed everyone in his family. Whatever he was going through, there’s absolutely no way it can compare to the damage he dealt to his loved ones when he took his own life. No way in hell. Which isn’t to say I don’t feel sympathy for the guy. I do. But that in no way absolves him for the repurcussions of his actions.

I also think you’re vastly over-estimating our natural aversion to “self-slaughter.” It ain’t really all that strong.

4

I think you are so wrong. Yes someone who commits suicide is mentally unbalanced. but when suicide is committed it not only kills the “victim” but everyone who loves that person is some way or form.

5

It is a horrible, horrible tragedy that anyone’s mind is so ruined by chemistry or horrors witnessed that they destroy themselves, certainly. But once they’ve done it, they’re done suffering. But for all those they’ve left behind, it’s just starting. I don’t think we need to be comparing who has the bigger scars, when everyone’s are on display.

–Cliffy

6

::sigh:: continuity eror.

That is true in some cases, I suppose, but I do not understand your vehemence towards Ruby, who is stating what most of her American society believes. Hell, I don’t understand why you’re pitting her.

It honestly can be either way. It depends; all situations regarding suicide are unique. Sometimes the victim is the person who dies, sometimes its those left behind. In some ways (not all), it comes down to whether the person was wanting to die or simply seeking attention – if they really wanted to die, they are not a victim, because they are at peace. But if they died somewhat accidently, simply wanting help and attention, than they are as much a victim as friends and family. It also could matter on how the level of depression and treatment at the time, whether it was pre-meditated and how sure of their action they were. The more you truly want to die, the less you are a victim, because you are getting what you want. This is ALL imho, okay (telling everyone). This is what I believe, not what is fact or truth per se.

Look. I’ve been thinking about or attempting suicide since I was seven. I’ve been diagnosed as having borderline personality, which for me means I crave attention through suicide sometimes. Angel of the Lord came back to an empty dorm room once after the paramedics left, having to find out what I did and where I was from two RAs. Another time she drove me to the hospital herself.

I am not a victim if I kill myself. When I first started treatment, I am more likely to say I was, because I was confused, unmedicated, and didn’t understand jackshit. Now, if I die, I know what the fuck I am doing, and the pain of what I would do to family members is un-fucking-believable, so much so that I hide most of that behind a shitload of mental walls and blocks.

There is no blanket statement regarding suicide. Nothing can be applied to two cases, really. Sometimes the dead person is the victim, sometimes not. Please, please don’t come down on Ruby so hard. It’s not fair to her.

Did you just ignore this quote from the same thread?:

I don’t know. I’m sorry. I just want you to understand that I myself cannot be considered the victim of my actions because of all that I have learned after a decade of dealing with depression and BPD.

Shadez

PS: I’m fine. Just trying to get you to understand how different things can be, continuity eror. That’s all.

PPS: I’m unable to look at replies due to no internet; on my day off atm. email me if needed, k?

7

Just wanted to point out that I’m not pitting Ruby specifically; her quote was just the easiest to pull out and put here. I’m pitting anyone who thinks their pain at losing a loved one compares to the pain of mental illness. I have more to say but it’s too late to formulate a full reply; I will return tomorrow.

8

(Bolding mine.)

Comparing people’s emotional pain is fruitless. The difference is that the suicidal person’s pain was inflicted upon them by biology, while the suicide’s survivors’ pain was inflicted upon them by someone who they loved and who they thought loved them. I see that as an added layer of pain.

I say this as someone who is currently in a suicidal trough herself.

9

This comparison is total bullshit. A cancer or murder victim does not intentionally inflict pain and anguish on his/her loved ones. A person who commits suicide does.

Suicide is a coward’s way out, and is an act that’s totally selfish and shows either disregard or hatred for the survivors.

You wanna’ off yourself? At least have the decency to crash your car into a bridge butress so it looks like an accident.

10

This is the only sentence in this thread that makes any fucking sense whatsoever.

11

Obviously you’re upset here, but I have to say that your post was one of the stupidest I’ve ever read.

Guess what, for the person who kills themselves, their pain is over. Done for. Their dead. And in the wake of there actions, are an entire army of family and friends left wondering if it was there fault. If there was something they should have done differently. If they could have prevented it.

My brother’s best friend killed himself when he was 11. My brother is still enjoying the fruits of his labors 25 years later. Sorry - R quit being the victim the moment he died - my brother gets to be victimized by the memory for the rest of his life.

Mental illness sucks, for more than just the mental patient - to forget that is to minimize how bad it really is.

12

Tenar, whatever you do, you must not act upon your impulse to take your own life. Depression twists perception of reality. It also affects that part of the brain responsible for judgment and decision-making. Resolve to choose not to no matter what. Then get help. If nothing else, there is always a hospital emergency room.

There have been times in my life when I have had to put myself on automatic and go to a safe place.

John Carter, some people who take their own lives are so confused they thing they are doing everyone a favor. It’s not other people they hate. It’s themselves. They think that way because their brains are sick – physically screwed up. Mental illness can have physical roots just like brain cancer. That’s why medication works.

Stop expecting mentally ill people to think straight.

(Time for a slow dance?)

13

I’ll always make time for a dance. I’ve got this tape with the Chantels singin’ “Maybe” on it…care to?

Perhaps my remarks were a bit over the top, but the Op is entirely off the meter!

14

True that.

I think the OP has a point. In many cases the people quick to say that “X was so selfish for killing herself” are the very people that might have prevented it had they shown an inclination to give a damn.

In my own case, when I tearfully told my parents – one a trained counselor, the other with a BA in psychology – that I was suicidal, their response was literally “I don’t believe you.” Despite that, I have no doubt that had I offed myself, all sorts of people would rush to supply them with the rationalization the OP talks about. OTOH, I also knew that there were other people who would have been devastated by it who I had no right to do that to.

I find it hard to think that any suicide doesn’t have at least some element of narcissism (mine would have tons). There’s nearly always one more solution you could have tired, one more door you could have knocked on. But ISTM that there’s also a desire to justify those left behind, and that that isn’t always warranted.

15

I’m going to side with the minority. I mostly agree with the OP.
And yes, I have known both people devastated by the suicide of someone they loved and people who commited suicide.

16

I just can’t bring myself to blame people who kill themselves. I do find it selfish to say: “That person was so unhappy that dying was a better alternative than living on, but I wish they did so for MY sake.”

On the other hand, I’ve never had a close friend or family member kill themselves, so perhaps my opinion would change.

17

I have done, shall we say, a few things that in hindsight were incredibly stupid (I have no criticism of others on this board that are more “open” about things than me, but I’m not comfortable detailing my stupidities). At the time of my stupidities I didn’t think about the effect it might have on others, so in no way could it be said that I was intentionally attempting to inflict pain and anguish on others. I’ll grant that a few suicides might be cognizant at the time of their action of the effect their suicide might have on others, but I also suspect (no cites) that most of them are the “cry for help” suicides that were hoping to be found in time.

18

No. You are incorrect in claiming that there can be only one victim.

I’ve had a dear cousin who committed suicide, and a brother who attempted it. As someone mentioned earlier, it’s pointless to try to compare one another’s pain and claim that one is worse than another. I don’t doubt for a minute that my cousin was in severe pain from his mental illness (which his family tried to get him to treat, but he refused.) But his pain is gone now, while his mother, father, and brother are still wracked with guilt and pain from his loss even now, 9 years later.

19

I have to agree with this. When I was in a support group for women who’d been sexually assaulted, one ground rule was that no one was to compare their pain with anyone else’s in the group. Not only is it polite, but it just makes sense - people deal with emotional trauma differently.

And as others have mentioned, every suicide is different. As someone who’s had suicidal ideation during the worst periods of my depression, I also know what a suicide did to a friend of mine (his wife killed herself), and so I do know that no matter how bad I feel about myself, my friends and family would just be torn apart. Hell, many suicidal people might think twice, even in the depths of their despair, if they were able to believe they might be just “handing off” their pain to some loved one who’d succumb to depression after the suicide happened.

20

I’m sorry, but you’re just wrong. Suicides leave many victims in their wake. For you to disagree with this, you’d have to believe that after a person commits suicide, no one is ever hurt or harmed by the act, that the grief and pain of loved ones in mourning is trivial, and that feelings of guilt never arise. I know for myself, knowing the damage I’d cause is what has kept me from escalating my suicide ideation.

In my mind, a person who commits suicide is the victim of mental illness.

A person suffering from a loved one’s suicide is a victim of suicide.

Both victims, just of different things.